How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Thanks, @Former-Member.

@RabbitsMum, @Sahara

Well, it's not like I've never dropped out of a forum thread before. It's differant here because it's not like I'm insulting any of you by toning down my presence in the thread (I hope?). And I'd think there's a legitimate basis for my decision too, I mean it's kind of obvious that the posts were compounding too much here for one person to be able to respond to them completely. And like I said, the appropriateness of the subject matter was also becoming an issue, so IMHO, it's probably best that I stopped discussing it voluntarily, rather then forcing the hand of the mods to shut the thread down.

@RabbitsMum

One of the many things I didn't get to reply to was your comment about the euthanasia organizations. I've already reached out to them, but I think that euthanasia outside of the context of a terminal illness is such a political hot potato that most of them don't want anything to do with it.

I read through this thread and found it so interesting...

Chibam you seem like a really virtuous and good person who really lives by the motto do unto others as you would have done onto you. I wonder how someone comes to be so good in such a world? Because the world can at times be so morally ambiguous

Thanks @DefiantPanda.

As you say, I do try, as best I can, to "do unto others as I would have them do unto me". And I would say that my drive to be the best person I can be comes largely from having to endure a distinct absense of any goodness for pretty much my entire life, and the realization that a massive infllux of goodness is something that the world is desperately in need of. In that regard, I can only make the modest contribution of a single man, but that's still better then not contributing anything, or contributing only more negativity and pain.

On that note, I'd say I;m also motivated to aspire to goodness by having been on the recieving end of the lifestyles of less-then-virtuous people more times then I would've liked; people who freely dish out negativity because it serves their own ends, or is more convienient for them then making the effort to make others happy.

And you certainly aren't kidding about the moral abiguity, either!

As I think I noted somewhere in a previous post, even "do unto others as you would have done onto you" is really confusing as hell. How do you behave when you are with someone who you know would be offended if they were treated the way you want to be treated? Do you treat them the way you want to be treated, thereby advertizing your own values, demonstrating how you wish to be treated, but also making others unhappy? Or do you treat them the way you know they want to be treated, potentially engaging in a practice that makes you feel "dirty", portraying yourself as having values that aren't your own, but selflessly pleasing others?

Hi @chibam, it's funny you ask that, as I am frequently presented with such situations myself. And sometimes the reverse too. I don't like being teased, even if the person claims they mean well, and I don't do it to others, yet it happens to me a lot... So should I start teasing them to give them a taste of their own medicine, to make them see how I feel? No, I don't think so; like you say, it would feel wrong. I don't want to do that... And yet have to endure it all the same.

@DefiantPanda,

Teasing is a tricky one, isn't it? I've know people with physical attributes that are often the basis for teasing (at least in elementary school), and they make more jokes about those attributes then anyone else! Then other people in the group start making their own clever remarks and the person who's the butt of the joke is laughing just as hard as everyone else in the room.

Teasing is a way of expressing friendship to some people and hell, I've used it as such myself. I haven't always gotten it right, and I regret my transgressions in that regard, but I think most of the time it actually had a positive effect.

But then, a lot of the time it does hurt, too. So it kind of seems like a problem with no solution.

But I agree with you about not giving them a taste of their own medicine, because to me, that would seem like a no-win situation.

If they do mean well, teasing them might give the impression that you want to join in the game and this will only encourage them.

If they don't mean well, then provoking them could prompt them to lash out at you all the much harder.

And as you say, you also have to live with a clear conscience, too. It's important to know that you've handled your trials honorably, even if it was the more difficult way to handle them. Well, at least for some people it is...

Dear Chibam,

my experience with therapists has been a positive one. Perhaps this may be because whenever I have started therapy, with the three different therapists that I have had in my life, I always made sure to write down what it was that I needed to improve in my life.

I set down and wrote down the problems that I had and the help I needed to improve these problematic areas. This has worked all of the time. But in my case, I found that I had to be bluntly honest with myself and look at the most delicate and intimate things of my life and share these with the therapist. Therapy has been very hard work for me, very traumatic at times. I have put a lot of work into it because I understood that while the therapist was there, I had to do most of the work to recover. This is a fact that patients, or clients, often overlook

It is so very difficult to do so that in some cases the client fails to be fully honest ( I am not here implying this is you by any means) and share important aspect of their life. This makes it impossible for the therapist to really help. In this sense, I am assuming that you have really opened up with your therapist and shared important truths about your struggles and your personality and that you are 100% committed to help yourself by doing whatever it takes. Change is very difficult and therapy is enormously difficult that is the very reason why many people prefer not to do it. You have to share important bits of your life with a stranger who is the therapist. Some may not even be able to trust anyone not even the therapist. Therapy becomes impossible.

To give an example, this one truth about me isvery important and I am not afraid to share it. I have OCD and while I can controll it today I have struggled in the past.I one day went to the therapist and I told the therapist: " I have a serious problem with my OCD (obsessive Copuslive DIsorder) I have to touch things around me once, things that may be a piece of paper, a wall, a pencil, or any object at all that my mind tells me to touch, that belongs to someone else and similar objects. This makes me look stupid in front of strangers and they often wonder why it is that I am touching things without a reason . I end up making a foold of myself. What can I do to stop touching things? Is OCD a kind of ritual and is it related to superstition?" I was able to stop touching things after an increadible amount of work that seemed almost superhuman. This is the kind of question you put to the therapist about your life and wait for her or his help. But if you don't tell the therapist how can they help you with this problem?

It may help if you sit down and write one at the time the problems that you want to fix. You cannot work on everything at once. If the therapist cannot help you in these problem areas then you need to change therapist. But there is nothings worse, I believe, than going to a therapist and just talking about anything that comes to your mind. This could be ok for a few sessions, in the initial stages, but the therapy does need some structure and precisely because it is expensive you need to get the best out of it you need to prepare. A good therapist will always ask you: "what would you like to work on now?"

Mind you that people will not show you how to live better in this world, that is something that you have to figure out, although you can ask for specific questions that may lead you to live better. This is because we are all different, we all have different personality defects, and we all have our unique was of feeling and doing things.

I have not had a chance to read all of the comments here so it is very possible that someone would have give you a similar reply to mine.

Finally, before you blame the therapist, and you could be right that she is not professional enough, have you been open with her in terms of disclosing your real problems? Have you set down and wrote down what you want to work on and showed it to her on a piece of paper? Are your expectations and goals for the therapy realistic? Or are you expecting the impossible from the therapist? These are the kind of questions you need to ask yourself because it takes two people to tango. The failure of your therapist could well be due to factors that have to do more with you than with her. Best to really look inside you and find an answer. Can you help this therapist to help you? That is the question.

And you can also use this site, not as therapy proper, but to prepare for therapy, to share ideas with other fellow sufferers like me. I am not an expert I am an educated person who suffers with Bipolar Disorder. I read a lot about mental illness and I am able to combiune theory with real life.

For example you could discuss here one area that you would like to work on with your therapist. That is up to you if you want to share personal things with others but given that no one will ever know who you are how can this hurt? You can prepare a question for your therapist with the help of the people here. You then take this paper to the therapist and see what kind of advise she gives you.

@chibam yes I suppose teasing is meant well most of the time... But I guess with teasing at least you are in on the joke when you're the butt of it and can laugh along with others.

I dislike criticism more I think, when people pretend they're talking in general terms, but really they're criticising something about you. I was out with a bunch of people I'd just met the other day and the event was lunch / AND OR coffee, so I just got coffee while they got lunch, and that always draws negative comments / evaluations. Someone asked me if I had enjoyed my coffee and I replied yes; another person next to me had ordered food and a coffee, and they commented that they enjoyed their coffee because they had had it 'after their meal, and hadn't been drinking the coffee as food; rather they had enjoyed it as coffee' and I just thought well that's a slap in the face to me really, isn't it?

I guess this is something for me to talk to a psychologist about. It still hurts that people constantly criticise you when all you want to do is enjoy yourself. I don't know why they're so mean.

I hate being singled out like that... Anyways sorry for hijacking your thread chibam. I tend to do that haha

Good point @chibam, and it's something we have talked about in this thread, too.

As for myself, I generally do treat people how I would like to be treated myself, although it does get tricky. One of the problems is that we have no idea whether everyone thinks like we do and would want to be treated the same as we would like to be treated. We can only assume that they would - but we don't know for sure.

I believe people who think alike and thus like to be treated similarly tend to gravitate together. Those who don't 'get' their behavior or their jokes tend to gravitate away from the group and find their own social network where they feel more comfortable. Hence you will find groups of friends where teasing is encouraged and other groups of friends where teasing is considered rude.

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@chibam wrote:

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Do you treat them the way you want to be treated, thereby advertizing your own values, demonstrating how you wish to be treated, but also making others unhappy? Or do you treat them the way you know they want to be treated, potentially engaging in a practice that makes you feel "dirty", portraying yourself as having values that aren't your own, but selflessly pleasing others?

@chibam,

I think it would be inauthentic to portray yourself as having values that aren't your own. Would you what others to be inauthentic with you? Or would you want to know how they really feel?

As for myself, I think that I would rather know how people really feel about an issue, rather than them telling me 'little white lies' in order to spare my feelings. That way, I can choose not to associate with them in the future, if that suits me best in the long term.

I suppose that you would feel that choosing not to associate with someone would hurt them in some way? But I disagree; I think it would actually make their life more pleasant! By removing myself, I am allowing them to go on thinking the way they do without hindrance, or the inconvenience of having someone disagree with them.

I am just thinking of an example in my own life. I had a friend who wanted me to come around to her house almost daily to help her out, as she was a new Mum. At first I didn't mind, but then her requests got more and more frequent.

One time, she called me at 9.30pm, wanting me to come over straight away, as she was home alone with her baby and felt anxious. I was already in my pajamas and was about to go to bed! So I said 'no'. This did not go down well and led to an argument between us.

Should I have treated her as she wanted to be treated, ie - be a friend who instantly met all her demands without question?

If I had done this, I would have ended up as basically her 'slave' and I do not believe anyone wants to be treated like a slave! (Ok, there could be a few exceptions!)

What tends to happen in a situation like this one is that the person who wants to have others be of service to her constant demands ends up attracting people who like to serve others. So they subconsciously meet each other's needs.

I like to help, but I do not like to be taken for granted and ordered about. My friend was ultimately better off finding someone else to fit her requirements - she would have been most satisfied with someone who was very subservient. So really, by refusing the role she had set out for me, I was actually doing her a big favour.

(* As far as I am aware she has still not found anyone to fill this role.)

@Sahara

I think it would be inauthentic to portray yourself as having values that aren't your own. Would you what others to be inauthentic with you? Or would you want to know how they really feel?

I would want people to endeavor to say and do things that are predicted to make the people around them happy. Otherwise, what chance do any of us ever have of being happy, if we are all surrounded by people unwilling to make the effort or sacrifices needed to bring happiness to the world?

I think that I would rather know how people really feel about an issue, rather than them telling me 'little white lies' in order to spare my feelings.

I’ve spent too much of my life knowing “how people really feel” to agree with this. I spent most of my life hearing somebody’s uncensored ideas about how certain ethnic groups are abominations, vermin that contaminate the country. Years and years of having to weather a seemingly endless barrage of sickening negativity and racism. All the time hoping and praying that they’d shut the f*** up and keep their awful prejudices bottled up inside where they couldn’t hurt anyone else. But they never did; they just kept on shamelessly spurting out their filthy bile.

That’s why I have the utmost respect for those who devote themselves to trying to speak and act in the manner that will be most enjoyable for those around them. Because I’ve spent pretty much my whole life wishing I could somehow replace the self-righteous monsters who make my life so ugly with selfless, benevolent people who want to make it enjoyable.

That way, I can choose not to associate with them in the future, if that suits me best in the long term.

But again we come back to this problem in that we are supposed to abstain from a certain taboo, unmentionable action because we apparently have an obligation not to leave the people we have ties with, because it will upset/inconvienience them. So as much as we might love to be free of such people, we seem to have a moral obligation to endure them and their ugliness.

I suppose that you would feel that choosing not to associate with someone would hurt them in some way? But I disagree; I think it would actually make their life more pleasant!

You’d think so, wouldn’t you? Unfortunately, that has not been my experience. I’ve found that even when being as subtle and polite as possible in avoiding others, it usually triggers a wave of negativity and displeasure from them. I’ve heard of such reactions through the grapevine and even been confronted by perfect strangers who have already formed unfavorable impressions about me before I ever met them!

Spurning people triggers negativity that infects the lives of others. So seeing as negativity is a badness that ought to be avoided, it seems that we are morally obligated to refrain from spurning the people who would unleash that negativity - at least until their potential to react negatively can be "diffused".

My friend was ultimately better off finding someone else to fit her requirements - she would have been most satisfied with someone who was very subservient. So really, by refusing the role she had set out for me, I was actually doing her a big favour.

(* As far as I am aware she has still not found anyone to fill this role.)

Uh, maybe I’ve missed something here, but you seem to have disproved your own statement here. It seems that things haven’t worked out well at all for your friend and the only person who seems to have benefitted out of what transpired between the two of you is yourself.

Ideally, the world would be a place where everybody has a set number of associations; if one association proves to be faulty and is disposed of, another one is arranged to replace it. But unfortunately, the world’s priorities aren’t so noble. Losing contact with a person or a group of people does not result in new friendships to replace those old associations. I was once fortunate enough to have some unpleasant relationships disappear from my life almost entirely. As much as I would’ve loved for some new, better people to come in to my life and serve as improved replacements for those old, unpleasant relationships, none ever did.

For a lot of us trapped in unpleasant relationships, our only possible chance of connecting with potential new friends/loved ones is through existing connections that we otherwise find unpleasant.