How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

For a lot of us trapped in unpleasant relationships, our only possible chance of connecting with potential new friends/loved ones is through existing connections that we otherwise find unpleasant.

Yes, I find this to be true also. One of the social groups I am forcing myself to be involved with at this minute is run by such a person who makes fun of people's appearances .... A LOT. I want to avoid her but she would notice, oh yes, she would... But the other people in the group are nice and being around them is nice so I will have to just endure her. I will not stoop to her level and 'tease' or 'criticise' her back, nor do I have the option of leaving (I will miss all the others). So the only way to win here is to endure her 😞

Dear Chibam,

I mean no disrespect just giving my opinion here, based on my current values...

in my experiences, I have had to portray myself as having values that are not my own.

Indeed, as a voluteer friend and helper for some sufferers online, because I have many friends with mental disorders, if I was not able to do this, I would not be able to help. People are not always ready to accept my values and I should not force these on to them without reasoning, without understanding where they are coming from.

This is something that psychologists also need to do. It is not that I just portray myself as having values that are not your own, I try not to offend the person with whom I am having a discussion and, unless I am specifically asked about my values, I don't readily disclose my values. I have to try and take other people's values onboard in order to understand them. This is not trying to deceive but a necessity for me. Because my values are attached to my beliefs and I prefer to keep beliefs at a distance. For me it is always important to put myself in other people's shoes so that I can understand their problems. Then, once I have a good idea of what is going on, I offer my perspective and then I can perhaps disclose my true values not in a forceful manner but gently and reasoning through the issues. But I am not very close to my values, I review them constantly. What is right for me may be wrong for someone else and there are also moral dilemma that are a real problem to my values, sometimes.

Also important is to define what we mean by values. Very often people have different understandings of life. Values are attached to other things like morality and moral dilemmas. Many of our values are totally weird. And adhering strongly to my own values can also be a problem for it could prevent me from seeing things that are still valuable and right but that I had not seen or perceived before precisely because of having strong values.

Values are the things the I believe are important in the way I live and work. They determine my priorities and are probably the measure of how I feel my life is truning out, the direction. Because of these, my values have been a real problem for me in this sense. Values are also inculcated in us by a not so clever system and can lead to many problems. There are good values and not so good values and we all have a mixture of good and not so good values in us. Values can also lead to being closed minded as opposed to open minded.

Some culture have certain values that prevent young women from getting married to foreigners. In the Catholic church, it was prohibited to have abortion or to get divorced. And values change according to the times. In other cultures it is a sin to be gay such as in gay muslims. And so on. Not all values are good and not even my values are all good. Most are problematic.

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@chibam wrote:

@Sahara

My friend was ultimately better off finding someone else to fit her requirements - she would have been most satisfied with someone who was very subservient. So really, by refusing the role she had set out for me, I was actually doing her a big favour.

(* As far as I am aware she has still not found anyone to fill this role.)

Uh, maybe I’ve missed something here, but you seem to have disproved your own statement here. It seems that things haven’t worked out well at all for your friend and the only person who seems to have benefitted out of what transpired between the two of you is yourself.

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Hi @chibam,

The reason that my friend has not found someone else to fulfill my previous role is that there are actually very, very few people in the world who are willing to be as subservient as she would hope for. She may yet find someone!

But what has actually happened is that she has been forced to become more self-sufficient and she has also been forced to confront her anxieties around being alone. I suppose we will never know if this is ultimately in her best interests or not, but I believe that it is. She is now more likely to seek treatment and get appropriate help as there is no-one in her life (as far as I know) that is enabling her to remain helpless.

She is seeing a psychologist for on-going care. I actually plan to call her this week.

The reason I wrote "as far as I am aware she has not found anyone to fulfill this role" is that in a cheeky kind of way, I am giving myself a little pat on the back for not being the only poor, manipulated sucker in a radius of 100 miles of my friend!! I am not alone! No-one else wants to do her bidding, either! And let me tell you; she has at least 50 friends. Not one of them wanted to be a subservient help-maid.

Yes, I am very happy that I was able to stand up for myself and ditch my subservient role. However, in my life to date, I have actually been an extremely helpful person and have often gone out of my way to help and assist others. I even worked in a helping profession for 25+ years. I assist little old ladies to cross the road and I do volunteer work, too. So I don't believe I am heartless or uncaring; I just have to draw the line somewhere.

@chibam, if you prefer people to be inauthentic and constantly be on guard in order to say and do only things that make everyone else happy, then I think you will most likely find people like this will gravitate towards you.

Keep at it. I think you just have to find the right group of people. Maybe you could go into politics? (*I am joking, of course.)

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@chibam wrote:

I was once fortunate enough to have some unpleasant relationships disappear from my life almost entirely. As much as I would’ve loved for some new, better people to come in to my life and serve as improved replacements for those old, unpleasant relationships, none ever did.

For a lot of us trapped in unpleasant relationships, our only possible chance of connecting with potential new friends/loved ones is through existing connections that we otherwise find unpleasant.

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@chibam,

I think you are 100% absolutely better off alone than in bad company. I have always believed this and I have never had a moments regret in leaving a bad friendship or relationship. Not one moment.

My only regret is that I did not leave these relationships sooner!

Sorry for the feedback but this is a very interesting discussion and I feel it is good to read a variety of opinions.

There are many friendship that I considered to be bad only to find later that some where wonderful. Looking at my past I was not always in a position to judge correctly but that is me and I cannot speak for anyone else.

Do I wish that I was more sure of myself? Not really if that meant making such huge mistakes due to my distorted thinking. I cannot always be right and nor my judgements or decisions are always right, I understand this because I understand my mental disorder.

@theaveragejoe wrote:

Indeed, as a voluteer friend and helper for some sufferers online, because I have many friends with mental disorders, if I was not able to do this, I would not be able to help. People are not always ready to accept my values and I should not force these on to them without reasoning, without understanding where they are coming from.

This is something that psychologists also need to do. It is not that I just portray myself as having values that are not your own, I try not to offend the person with whom I am having a discussion and, unless I am specifically asked about my values, I don't readily disclose my values. I have to try and take other people's values onboard in order to understand them. This is not trying to deceive but a necessity for me.

Hi @theaveragejoe,

I understand what you mean. In order to be of real help to someone else, you may need to 'suspend' your own values and take on board the other person's values in order to 'walk in their shoes', so to speak. You have to try and see things from their point of view.

I have heard that this is what psychologists do. It must be extremely difficult for them.

One way around it is to see a therapist who belongs to the same religion as you do. For instance, my friend is a Catholic and she sees a psychologist who is also a practising Catholic and makes no attempt to pretend otherwise. He expounds Catholic values. This is what my friend wants from him.... to be true to his own values in counselling her.

A different friend of mine had psychologist as a personal friend. She never saw this psychologist for professional advice, they were simply friends and that is all. When this psychologist/friend told my friend that psychologists have to suspend their own belief systems in order to counsel people, my friend was very upset! She though psychologists should not remain impartial and should offer their own personal opinions on things.

My poor friend then felt ripped-off that the counsellors she had seen in the past had remained impartial!

Hi Shara,

yes I understand what you mean, and I agree with what you are saying. But the job of the psychologist, or helper, or social worker, or whatever, is not to ensure that their values are the same as that of the client, and vice versa. I think that the task of the psychologist is to help the client to come up with strategies so that the client can live better with what they have.

I prefer a good psychologist that does not have the same values as me but that is able to help me. And my psychologist agrees with me that he is not there to push his values or have the same values as the clients. That is not what therapy is all about. And perhaps if we were all this way, we all thought this way, there would be less wars and less conflict in the world.

But yes, I do understand your point, Shara, which is very valid point: some people demand a therapist that shares the same values. Pretty hard to find one who has the exact identical values though. Some main values need to be respected, yes. I mean, you would not want your psychology to present at therapy in the nude! But what about a male client who is gay and dresses in women's clothes? Should the psychologist, who say is this particular case is a muslim, and muslim values are essentially against the idea of a gay man, refuse to help this client? Would that even be legal in Australia? Or would he lose his permit to practice?

Values are very tricky and the situation is extremely complex. There are values and values, some differences must, by necessity, be tolerated while others cannot be. It is all a juggling act. No exact science here.

Just my opinion,

please know that in these reply I am not assuming to be right and, above all, I am not verbally challenging people. I am just stimulating constructive thinking, always with the greatest respect for those that have different opinions.

The way I help my friends is mostly by listening to their stories and by being honest in sharing my point of view not in a forceful manner but in open discourse.

In the past I have walked away from what I thought were bad relationships only to 'come out of the fog' later on and realise that I may have misjudged the situation due to distorted thinking. I ended up missing the people and being lonely and asking myself if my values were actually too harsh if they meant cutting people out left right and centre and getting upset so often over things that other people thought were trivial. So lately I've been trying to suspend my judgement a little bit... I dislike this person, but there are benefits to being around them and enduring them... However there also has to be a line doesn't there? Some people will realise they are in a position of power and take advantage... Oh this person can't leave because xyz, therefore I can treat them however I wish. I've been in that position often enough too. It is very complex and there are no easy answers.

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@theaveragejoe wrote:

Hi Shara,

But what about a male client who is gay and dresses in women's clothes? Should the psychologist, who say is this particular case is a muslim, and muslim values are essentially against the idea of a gay man, refuse to help this client? Would that even be legal in Australia? Or would he lose his permit to practice?

Hi @theaveragejoe,

I think that in the case that you mentioned above, the psychologist would refer the client on to a psychologist who was more suitable for that particular client's needs. The psychologist would just say "In my experience, I believe that there is someone who has much more expertise at dealing with your particular needs. I want you to make an appointment with this person."

I don't know for sure, but I believe that this is what happens. I know that in the case of a woman seeking an abortion, for example, that a doctor who has a moral objection to abortions will refer the woman on to a doctor who has no moral objections. This is legal and I believe it is ethical, if done with sensitivity.

The doctor would not declare "I have a moral objection to abortion", he/she would simply say "I am going to refer you on to someone who has more expertise in this area."

But I am the same as you - I am not like my friends.... I do not mind what the personal values of my psychologist are, although at times, these values do seem to become evident. I think I am an intelligent person and I have a natural instinct for working out how someone really feels about any one issue. Usually it wouldn't bother me if I felt my therapist was on a different page to me, because being challenged by others' opinions is an important part of life and I can take away what I want from therapy and leave all the rest.

Hi DefiantPanda,

in my very humble opinion, that of a fellow sufferer, you have the right ingredients, in your current values and understanding of mental disorder, to be able to begin to get along with people.

With our mental disorde4r often comes a big problems, that of "not trusting" people, especially if our parents or caregiver have done something major wrong to us in the past. In this position of mistrust, it is very hard to judge who is good or bad. It can be done but not in ahurry and certainly not without feedback from our therapist or someone who can look at the problems with us and give us feedback

It does pain me to say that in the past I have been so very wrong, and I am still wrong today, sometimes. But I don't act on it till I am absolutely sure.