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How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

What the title says.

I don't want to sound disrespectful to the people who keep saying that "talking about problems helps", but if someone actually wants to make their life worthwhile and not just talk about how much it sucks, how do they get someone who is willing to provide ACTUAL help for a person's problems?

How do you get someone to provide you with/arrange the introductions you need to make your quality of life worthwhile? How do you get someone to actually tell you what to do to make your life what you want it to be, instead of winding up on that verbal merry-go-round that therapists take you on, where they talk you around and around in pointless circles (that cost you $200 an hour!) without providing any actual answers?

How do you get someone to actually try to broker an agreement between yourself and the rest of society, so that the two of you can actually start cooperating for mutual benefit, instead of just hating one another for looking so ugly to them?

73 replies

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In response to: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

I know I spent most of my time in therapy hoping that my therapist would keel over, because then I'd be free. Everytime a news story came on about a road fatality or some orther incident with a death toll, I'd cross my fingers that she'd be a part of it and I was always a little disappointed when she wasn't.

That's the problem with mindless survival dogma. When something survives simply for the sake of surviving, it tends to show little inclination towards doing good; because doing good is not an essential requirement of survival.

Choosing to be a victim to the extent you wish someone ill to end your own inability to get out of a situation doesn't sound like "goodness" to me or indeed, doing good. If wanting someone else to tell you what to do is so strong that you cannot address a scenario then we circle back to you either needing to change that or, electing for a relationship and community where most of the decisions are removed from you. Which do you want? To alter your mindset or become a submissive slave? If you want both then I would ask you to consider how the way you view things tends to blame the 'other'. A lot seems to be this therapists fault but you are intelligent enough to discourse that now so, you have the wherewithall to move past this.

You had said way back that you didn't enter therapy with any kind of plan should it not work out well. That is a good life lesson. Obviously you would now do that. To continually focus on a therapist you haven't seen for a long time could be seen as obsessing over them - or placing value on them that isn't warranted.

Perhaps they emailed every day because they were concerned you were suicidal. Rather like checking on an elderly neighbour with a bad heart condition each day to ensure they are ok. BUT, it was up to you to say "I do not wish to do this any more" and take steps. It's not your fault per se if you couldn't do it, but neither was it the therapists fault if you couldn't.

The connection - or lack of - you make between survival and doing good mystifies me. For some people, particularly those who have very strong suicidal thoughts, choosing to 'be' - even for just one more day - could be argued as doing good. Just of itself. It could be argued as good from a spiritual perspective. It could also be argued as good from a self preservation perspective. Ditto courage and bravery.

Doing good is not a requirement of survival. Sorry, not sure I see the point of this. Anyway, you didn't think your therapist did you any good, but we presume she is still surviving, as are you. Not sure where 'goodness' comes into that.

What next for you now is where I'd love to see your conversation going. If you seriously believe you have trauma that you can't get over re that therapist then you need a different professional person to talk to - but - you need to move onward with a sense of purpose about laying that past interaction to rest.

In response to: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Hello @chibam

Many of the questions you ask in this thread, including the title are great. Food for thought. Thank you for sharing and inviting others on the forum into your thinking processes. You have made a lot of good points.

I have been struck by your persistent desire to do good and be a compassionate person. I seriously agree the MH field should be more cautious about false promises. I also was struck by your toughness on yourself about not giving enough false praise. I think keeping to your sense of integrity and authenticity is a good thing, just dont make yourself suffer and endure a circumstance like your old therapist again, irl or online either. I am a female who cringes when there is clothes and appearances talk. I crave real connection and just cant relate to that as genuinely important to being good person or a good woman. It is such a delicate path to walk when wishing to be kind to everyone and do no harm. I believe a mild so-so comment is better if it preserves your dignity and opinion and then the feedback to the other is not necessarily negative but at least it is honest. When I was 15 I worked in women's dress shops and the pseudo-professional praise thing must have disgusted me so much I could never go there.

My lecturer in counselling firmly believed that if people showed vulnerability then they would attract a more predatory type of personality. I was shocked at that. Not sure if I am still clinging to my illusions, but it seems to have been something I repeated as a pattern again and again. The best shift in dynamics for me was to learn to assert my strong side. Not sure how my story ends up .. so cant give a definitive answer.

I think when I was in early 20s I would have liked a few more therapists, to be able to provide the kind of information and guidance that you were seeking. Its not wrong to want some advice or suggestions. Perhaps, therapists could present options and talk them through. From my point of view, I might look back on my past therapy experience with more respect if that had been the case.

I also found it good to read your philosphical discussions about moralities in suicide. I think there needs to be more of that in society, not just a knee-jerk reaction, that suicidal ideation is bad, and a sickness therefore needs a pill ... maybe there are a few things wrong in society .. so thanks again ... I have gone through a lot of those same thought processes .. myself, I havent found docs, therapists up to the task. I think there are challenges in being alive and challenges to make that life worth while, but then these should become part of the meat and potatoes of therapy .. not mindless completion of mood tools.

Re the cessation of therapy. I think it could be a good idea for therapists and all psychdocs counsellors to enquire (one email only .. not coercion) if a client were to miss or disappear without having some agreed and mutual sense of completion of some goals. I think it would encourage more accountability in the profession. I personally would have interpreted it as some caring. No-one ever did. With current tech tools this would very easy ... maybe 8 weeks after last appointment if there is not an explicit agreement to have more sporadic type of counselling, depending on needs.

I am person who watched 2 siblings die not having their needs met in the MH profession. So I take this seriously too. I think the professional ASSOCIATIONS should do a little tracking if a person suicides and followup past contacts.

Re exit strategies. I have never thought about that. In your situation there may have been a bit of rorting going on. A GP warned me that it was rife in the current system. My anxiety was always that I wouldnt be seen, or that I would be brushed aside. To actually make some commitments to me would have been very helpful. It only happened once that a person said she was not leaving the area .. I live on the wrong side of town .. it is getting better but for a while it was hard to get any therapist out here.

@RabbitsMum concept of being comfortable has never been helpful to me .. not back then and not now. It is premised on having a prior experience of security and comfort. I do not understand what being comfortable is about.

I got into undesirable peer groups, instead of the veil of judgment clearer suggestions about what available in the world that was wholesome would have been very helpful ... but ... no .. I had to figure out that for myself. There are ways of showing young people that there are many options and pathways that will gradually unfold into a more productive life that can be suggested in open and non-coercive or judgmental manner.

Also I second the point re the ... being a client .. and taking into account the money the counsellor is recieving from the govt .. as actually part of your own budget....

that you are a client with rights and not a second class citizen who has to submit to the whims of any person with a bit of pwer.

I really hear you when you imply that a lot of the help out there .. is not relevant, suitable or reaching the mark .. with all due respect to our moderators .. who may well be exceptional ... the stats prove it.

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

I also found it good to read your philosphical discussions about moralities in suicide. I think there needs to be more of that in society, not just a knee-jerk reaction, that suicidal ideation is bad,....myself, I havent found docs, therapists up to the task.

I know I trimmed out some words above but I wanted to comment on this. Perhaps society should discuss this more and there are certainly a number of pro euthenasia groups out there. (World Right to Die organisations and Exit International are two).

The problem however is expecting a counsellor or a medico to give you approval as such where their core ethics is to ensure "do no harm" and "see no harm comes to the person". I've not read an ethics policy for a while so counsellors reading here might comment.

Now, of course, to someone believing they have the right to suicide, being told by a counsellor that they shouldn't do so because ZXY reason may be construed as a form of harm. This is a point of philosophical debate.

BUT, why go to a counsellor at all? Nothing is stopping an individual from taking their own life. To require permission from another person - beyond say an immediate partner or loved one - seems at odds with the belief of right to die. It's also placing, in certain situations, the decision on the other party. Why is that fair? If you need to be told to do away with yourself, then that actually suggests you're not ready to do so and need help.

Attending a counselling session, by default, suggests you are clinging to life, even if by a tattered thread. And so we turn the circle and see the counsellor trying to assist the individual to climb out of their mindstate or feelings.

I accept there are some very bad counsellors out there and I have experienced a couple, but to expect them to parent you and tell you what to do - whether to live or to die - strikes me as an unrealistic expectation. And trust me, there have been several times in my life where I craved someone else to take over and relieve me of basically all decisions. I know what that is like.

As for the "comfortable" comment I believe chibam commented somewhere about growing feelings of disquiet in their counselling sessions. I recall going to an appointment some years ago and being almost out of body because of my level of anxiety. In the midst of a panic attack I told that counsellor something extremely private and what they said to me was so "off" that I felt another part of me take a body blow. So, even amid discomfort you can feel when something additional isn't right. It's how to act on that - and the problem with deciding whether it was actually as bad as you thought it was of course - that's so hard for many. But I do take your point that some folks don't know what feeling "normal" is. I was thinking last night about a relaxation course I did once. I find it hard to relax but the session was so soothing that I struggled to get up and knew I couldn't drive. I had this weird feeling.. "Is this what it is to be relaxed?? WOW".

In response to: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Hi @chibam,

I think we can be interested in survival and in doing good at the same time. One does not preclude the other. I did suggest that your therapist might be primarily interested in survival, but she might have also had a strong urge to do good. I guess we will never know!

Somehow (and I could be wrong) I think she might have presumed that she was helping you, as you kept coming back to see her for all those years. I don't think she would have known that you wished she would disappear off the face of the Earth. You were always polite and accepting.... to your own detriment, it would seem.

I think most people like to believe that they are doing some good in this world... it's just that what they consider "good" and what you consider "good" may be two different things!

I used to work for many years in a "helping" profession and while many people in this profession started out as youngsters who were very motivated to do good ... they ended up quite cynical, tired and angry. The work was all just too draining; both physically and emotionally. But once you have children and a mortgage, it's difficult to just leave a profession that pays well. You have other people to consider - your family. So your motivation to stay in that job is basically 'good' - you are sacrificing your own fulfillment in order to provde for your family. And the work that you do is considered very "good" by the greater community, too.

But you may be extremely unhappy and burnt out within yourself. So is your lifestyle good or bad? What do you think? Is it both good and bad at once????

I left my helping profession and never looked back. I had neither children nor a mortgage and all I ever wanted was to be free. Even though helping people is considered "good", I am happier whan I help myself!

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

@chibam,

Maybe you could use your experience for good.

Eg: perhaps you could email/write to the Australian Psychology Society or Ranzcp (if she was a Psychiatrist) and state that there should implement character testing before a person is allowed to practice and explain how your experience has affected you.

Ie:there should be tests to see if that person is narcissistic themselves,or has other "dysfunctions" that would cloud their judgments and relationships with clients.These measures should form part of the curriculum deciding whether a person is fit to practice and the deciding factor shouldn't only be that they passed their degree/course.

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?


@Appleblossom wrote:

My lecturer in counselling firmly believed that if people showed vulnerability then they would attract a more predatory type of personality. I was shocked at that. Not sure if I am still clinging to my illusions, but it seems to have been something I repeated as a pattern again and again. The best shift in dynamics for me was to learn to assert my strong side. Not sure how my story ends up .. so cant give a definitive answer.

Hi @Appleblossom,
I think your lecturer was spot on. A person who shows vulnerability becomes an easy target for someone else to exploit. This can happen quite subconsciously on both sides. The person who does the exploiting may not even know that they are being exploitative. They may just think they are very lucky to have found such a helpful person to befriend, who is willing to do anything for them!
Exploitation does not have to be obvious, violent or dramatic. It can be as subtle as singling out one person in a group of employees who always has to do the coffee run and therefore always has her tea-break cut short. The other employees get to sit around chatting for 10 or 15 minutes until their coffee arrives, while one poor soul struggles with 6 cups of coffee, an umbrella, a flight of stairs and a rude barrista.
Vulnerable people are treated like this all the time. They may even receive some form of praise for being subservient, which makes it all the more confusing for them. They become conditioned to accept their role and see it as inevitable and normal. If they do speak up for themselves, they may be subtly ridiculed as a way of keeping them in their place. This serves to show them that asserting themselves is wrong and possibly dangerous.
I have found that it is best to only show vulnerability with someone who you trust and have known for some time. I have probably taken this to the extreme, as I am still learning to assert myself and to tell people when I really don't want to do something. I am getting better at it. Until I master this skill, however, I am going to go out of my way to avoid people who come across to me as exploitative - and there seem to be a lot of them out there!

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

@RabbitsMum

Perhaps avoiding hurting my therapist wasn’t doing good per se, but it was averting a badness. And isn’t that more good then having the badness occur? I suppose, though, in truth, it wasn’t so much averting a badness as a badness was bound to occur one way or another; someone had to suffer, either her or me. I used what limited control I had over the situation to try to steer that suffering towards myself. Isn’t that what virtuous people do? Decide to take the blow themselves when the choice falls to them whether that blow falls on themselves or someone else?

Whether or not I’m a submissive slave isn’t really pertinant to this issue. Or, perhaps I should say, that unless I was slave to an ethical, admirable, honourable mistress, my predicament with the therapist would’ve been no better off. However, what would have been pertinant would have been to know how to please and thus earn favor with the people around me, so that I could call in that favor for assistance in ethically breaking off contact with the therapist. I wouldn’t be nearly as stuck as I had been in therapy if I could’ve counted on these people to tell the therapist that I had died, or I was hospitalized for a long time due to an accident, or something, if the therapist had inquired about my absense. But I couldn’t.

The fact is that if I’d told some of the people I knew that my therapist was crap, they probably would’ve have instructed me to tell her that she was crap and bail out on her. Most people I know unfortunately come from that “f*** everybody else, look out for #1!” mindset. It’s bad enough that they they treat others like this, but they also actually try to encourage this mindset in others! It’s an ugliness to be sure and there’s already too much ugliness in this world, so I have no interest in projecting that mindset out into the world myself.

Perhaps I misinterpreted you, but when you mentioned “wanting someone else to tell you what to do”, I get the impression that you were talking about someone who would tell me to tell the therapist she sucked and that I wanted to be rid of her. This certainly isn’t what I would’ve wanted. What I needed was someone I could brainstorm with, who likewise (tries to) live by the creed “treat others how you want to be treated”, who could help me concoct and exit strategy on-the-fly that would allow me to get out of therapy while still leaving the therapist feeling like she was good. Of course, if my partner in this regard was particularly brilliant, and automatically knew a sound strategy to accomplish this, then of course I would want direct instructions from him/her.

The therapist didn’t email me every day, as a matter of fact, she emailed me quite rarely. What happened was that she had instructed me to email her every day. I’m sure she didn’t read them all, as there were some emails that required a reply which never got one, prompting me to re-ask my questions in a subsequent email. I don’t think that it had anything to do with thinking I was suicidal, as she implemented this ritual from day one of our therapy and I don’t think we talked about suicide that early in the treatment.

I don’t especially blame the therapist for my being stuck with her, but I do think the system needs a bit of work in that regard. Therapy is marketed as the white-knight, saving grace that comes to the rescue of anyone who’s life isn’t worth prolonging. It is marketed to desperate people who are desperate to have some goodness poured into their lives. Add to that the fact that there’s this be-all and end-all dogma throughout society that ending one’s own life is always, always, always the wrong choice - a claim which, in order to be true, demands that there must be actual value in life; this claim is marketed as an absolute, undeniable fact. And the route to this value, for those who are yet to have it, is made out to be the mental health system. So basically, when you have desperate people walking in to therapy, there is little to no consciousness of the idea that the therapist isn’t actually prepared to help their patients. So the thought of ever needing an exit strategy is something that never naturally occurs to them. I think that somewhere within all the proclaimations of “If your life isn’t worth prolonging, a shrink *will* help you!” there ought to be a clear warning that the patients should prepare an exit strategy beforehand, just incase the therapy doesn’t work out.

I’m sorry if I didn’t make sense with my comments about doing good and survival. You talk about how a suicidal person surviving for just another day is doing good just by surviving. That can potentially be true, but not automatically so. For example, if the person is alive, but alive in deep misery, wishing deeply that they were dead, but are bullied/oppressed into continuing to survive by other people who are staunchly anti-suicide, then it’s hard to see how this situation can be classified as being in any way good. And if you were going to argue that potentially this period of misery is simply a bridge to an eventual period of substantial joy, then I would point out that for many people, this bridge is just a pipe dream that is almost certain to never occur and that the subsequent term of suffering that the suicidal person is pressured into enduring is utterly pointless.

Secondly, it depends on whether the suicidal person is a good person or not. I have to say that my personal experience is that most suicidal people tend to be quite selfless, but I doubt this is the case for every last one of them. We all know there are evil people in the world: domestic abusers, terrorists, serial killers, hate preachers, rapists, con artists, pedophiles, slave traders, mafia/cartel people… We know that the world would be better off without these people. So if they commit suicide, is that a bad thing? Hitler committed suicide, and for my 2 cents the only thing tragic about that was that he didn’t do it 6 years earlier, before the war and holocaust he engineered killed millions of people and inflicted untold suffering on the world.

Obviously, these examples are at the extreme end of humanity, but they illustrate that humans are capable of being bad things. The ones I mention above are the very bad examples. But there are lesser degrees of bad, too. Most of us are extremely unlikely to bump into a Charles Manson in the course of our lives. But we are quite likely to bump into someone who is driven primarily by survival dogma, rather then a desire to do good. In essence, when these people strike an opportunity to aid their own survival, but at the cost of being a thorn in the side of someone else, they take it, because that’s what their priorities dictate. They’ll never inflict the untold horrors upon you that a Hannibal Lecter-esque supervillain might, but at the end of the day they are prone to be something that darkens your door, if only in a small way. Because unless doing good for you will in some way help them survive, they have no real inclination to do it. Conversely, if doing something that helps them survive has unfavourable consequences for you, they have no reason not to do it, because surviving is more important to them then doing good.

When this gets really scary is when you find yourself in a world where you are surrounded by nothing but these kinds of animals. Survivors who offer you nothing but inconvenience and trouble as they skulk around seeking what they need to survive, without any interest in offering the world goodness and joy. In a world where no one, or barely anyone has an interest in serving goodness, is it any wonder why there’s no goodness to be found?

And I wouldn’t have said that I obsess over my therapist. As a matter of fact, I wouldn’t say I think about her all that much. But people in this thread started inquiring about my past therapy experience, so I’ve been addressing their questions and follow-on questions as best I can, so in that regard, it might seem like I’ve been talking about her a lot recently.

I must say though, that the thought that people are still stumbling into the trap of this system worries me. I would love to see the system fixed so that it offers actual help to people; or else have people guided towards a differant system that has an actual willingness to help them.

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

@Appleblossom

I've heard something like that before about "vulnerable" people naturally attracting predators. My #1 concern about asserting a strong side though would be that I would become somebody else's predator. Or perhaps not somebody's predator, but somebody's... the-person-who-scorned-them.

I was directed to a youtube clip recently (maybe from someone on here?) from that old sitcom, "Golden Girls". It was about one of the women, Dorothy, having this rare disease that made her lethargic. She saw heaps of doctors about it, but none of them could find anything wrong with her and they kept dismissing her as a hypochondriac nutcase. Then she got a diagonsis from a doctor who actually respected her enough to keep digging past the standard tests. A little later she encountered one of the doctors who dismissed her and she really ripped in to him for all the pain and humiliation she felt, not because he couldn't figure out what was wrong with her, but because he dismissed her in her hour of need. It was quite a powerful performance by Bea Arthur.

Anyways, I mention it because I wouldn't want to be that pain-inflicter to anybody else. I would worry that in trying to assert strength myself, I'd wind up trampling over somebody else.

I agree: there, really, really does need to be more public talk about suicide. I'm not saying that what's already being said about it needs to be said louder or more frequently. I'm saying that there should be very open discussion where both sides of the matter, i.e. the cases for commiting suicide, and the cases for abstaining for it are discussed openly and clearly.

For my 2 cents, I have to say that the currant messages that are targeted towards the suicidal community, to convince them to stay alive, are paper-thin. They are nothing but hollow vagueries, empty promises and exaggerated guilt-tripping. I've been listening to the anti-suicide propaganda for a long time and very keenly and not once have I heard a single concrete, compelling reason to suggest being alive is better then being dead. I haven't even heard a claim that sounds like it might be based on an actual, concrete reason.

We also really need to acknowledge the real and very compelling justifications for suicide in the world. This is where the anti-suicide camp really let everyone down because they don't want to admit that there's any sliver of legitimacy in a decision to end one's own life. But there is ugliness and emptiness in everyday life that adds weight to the idea that it might be best to end it all. They aren't delusions or anomalous brain chemicals, they are real problems with the world. And they won't be solved by throwing a slogan at the person who has to suffer them day after day. They need to be remedied by the powers that be and society as a whole. But for that to occur, we need to acknowledge them first.

Maybe there was some rorting going on with my therapist, or maybe not. I don't know. I know she did love money, though, so that's an entirely likely scenario.

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

@RabbitsMum (Again. Sorry, I'm replying to these post-by-post)

I think one of the main reasons why people go to a therapist when their suicidal is that they are promised by society in general that there is something that can make life worth prolonging and that the people who can tell you how to get this hypothetical goodness are therapists. That's certainly why I went to one.

In terms of "seeking permission" seeming to suggest that someone's clinging to life, well, what you have to remember is that suicide is (in modern society) a package deal. Yes, you get to be dead, but it also tends to have a simultaneous effect in that people you leave behind will tend to get negative and nasty about it. i.e. they start spreading an unpleasant characterization of the person who suicided with remarks like "XYZ was selfish", "XYZ was a head case", "XYZ was awful", ect.

Someone might dearly want to end their life, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they want to trigger the defamation and bitterness that comes with suicide. Ideally, the two should be separated. So in that regard, I think it makes an element of sense to try to seek consent from an envoy of society in general (e.g. the therapist). If society grants you respect of your decision to commit suicide, then it can hardly complain later when you actually go through with it. Obviously, it doesn't work out that way in practice, though. Therapists are absolutely committed to preventing suicides at any cost, and therefore have no interest in aiding their patients with the associated undesirable side effects.

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Hi @chibam, you've started a really interesting thread here. I'm very sorry to read that you became stuck in an unhelpful therapeutic situation for so long. In the SANE Help Centre we regularly advise people to move on from a Psychologist that they don't believe will be helpful. This is particularly important with so many people only having access to counselling through the 10 session medicare model. Each of those sessions is too precious to waste with someone you can't open up to and feel helped and supported by.

But yes, the message that not every therapist will be the right one for you, and that it's fine to change, doesn't seem to be as widely understood and accepted as it needs to be. Perhaps because we seem to sit within the medical model and people tend to hand over their authority in these situations. And also with hairdressers. But that might just be me 🙂

There's a tendency through this thread for you to take a bit of an extreme position so can I just reiterate that many Psychologists are indeed trained to provide suggestions about ways to improve their client's mental health and quality of life. Particularly those who take a cognitive-behavioural or acceptance-commitment approach. We have received quite a lot of training about what works and so it would be silly for us to sit on that information and let people work it out for themselves. What will generally happen though is that some strategies will be suggested and the client is encouraged to chose which ones to try. Taking ownership of the process is critical to following through and gaining the benefits.

Some psychologists might take a more passive approach depending on their training and for some clients this also works. It's depends on the individual and their needs. Given that you were in therapy for so long it's unfortunate that your progress wasn't reviewed regularly which might have given you the opening to share your frustration and disappointment.

You're also touching on suicidal ideation here. SANE produced a video called 'Lessons for Life' that can be found on youtube here. I think it's worth watching as it helps to explain why mental health professionals are invested in helping people decrease their distress and move on from these thoughts. We will generally have worked with many clients who felt suicidal and went on to recover and lead a good quality of life. We have seen what's possible and so we want that for all of our clients.

From my perspective it isn't so much about convincing someone about the value of life. It's more about treating and reducing the distress, hurt and any other obstacles in the way of them appreciating that fact for themselves. We try to remove the barriers to health and happiness but don't dictate what life then looks like.

That isn't to say that the conversation about suicide isn't valuable. It's just that for many (most?) mental health professionals this is simply one point on the journey. It's an important point that signifies just how difficult life has become but it's not the destination. Therapists have a responsibility to a client's future self, one they themselves have lost sight of.

Just a reminder too that we recognise that it's important to have an outlet to discuss suicidal ideation in the forums. However, just like in therapy, we have responsibility to everyones future selves. So we need to ensure that our conversations don't start to encourage or normalise suicide. We're skirting quite close to that line here.

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