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How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

What the title says.

I don't want to sound disrespectful to the people who keep saying that "talking about problems helps", but if someone actually wants to make their life worthwhile and not just talk about how much it sucks, how do they get someone who is willing to provide ACTUAL help for a person's problems?

How do you get someone to provide you with/arrange the introductions you need to make your quality of life worthwhile? How do you get someone to actually tell you what to do to make your life what you want it to be, instead of winding up on that verbal merry-go-round that therapists take you on, where they talk you around and around in pointless circles (that cost you $200 an hour!) without providing any actual answers?

How do you get someone to actually try to broker an agreement between yourself and the rest of society, so that the two of you can actually start cooperating for mutual benefit, instead of just hating one another for looking so ugly to them?

73 replies

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In response to: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Hi Again,

You know, Chibam, I think your gaols are basically the goals that the majority of people have in life... that is, to meet a loving partner and get married, to live in a supportive community of people and to find satisfying employment.... so far, so good!

But how do you achieve these goals? Well, most people don't exactly find these things easy. It takes a lot of trial and error; a lot of perseverance. You might pursue a number of different careers in your life, for example, and find good and bad things about each job.... one job might suit you while you are young and a different career might be more to you taste as you get older and more experienced in life. There is no one set way of doing things. No-one has all the answers!

I find it interesting that you want to be told how to think, how to behave and what to do. Don't you believe that any satisfaction could be gained in life by finding these things out for yourself.... you know, by lived experience? By trying this and then trying that... finding out what feels 'right' for you? Does this idea appeal to you in any way, shape or form?

For instance... you might not know which is the best singles group for you to join. You might have to go along to a number of groups and see what they are like. Then you might have to talk to people you know and see if they have any ideas about what might suit you better. It would take time and effort, but it might ultimately feel very satisfying.

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Also Chibam,

it's nice that you stayed in therapy for 7 years out of "compassion" for your psychologist. You didn't want to upset her by leaving her. It's a kind-hearted approach on your behalf but this type of behavior, where you put other people's needs way ahead of your own personal growth, may not serve you well in the long run. I hope ypou do not think I am being too critical, as I have experienced similar sorts of situations myself, in the past, and I have learnt the hard way.

You said that your psychologist was doing fairly well in life; she seemed to be successful in her chosen career - she was on T.V. and such. Then why assume that she would be hurt by a single patient leaving her practice? Couldn't it also be a possibility that she would be happy to have one less patient and a little bit more free time up her sleeve? You just don't know what her reaction would be to your leaving. You can't second guess it; there is no point in doing this. You just have to assume that as an experienced professional that she would have the coping skills to accept you departure with grace and understanding.

You said that you didn't like you psychologist and that you didn't benefit from therapy. The fact that you couldn't stand the woman would have sigificantly impacted on the theraputic process, because you would not have been able to genuinely open up to her. You would not have felt comfortable. From what you describe of her... I wouldn't have felt comfprtable either!

I wish you all the very best. I hope you can find another psychologist who understands and respects your goals.

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

@RabbitsMum,

Sounds like the cyber coffee would go well with an invincibility star. The coffee makes you hyper enough to run faster, allowing you to plow through twice as many goombahs.

Researcher. Got it.

It is a shame that therapists are basically useless in this regard. For one thing, all the press directed at people in hopeless situations directs them to get "help" from therapists. Meaning most of the people in need out there are thinking that the therapist is who their supposed to hire - not an executive assistant or researcher.

For another thing, at least in my case, the woman I'm looking for would almost certainly be classified by the system as "mentally ill". Meaning that as we were/are both ushered in to the same system, it would ideally be a good meeting environment.

But as you say, therapists are just the wrong people to see in such situations.

@Sahara,

You raise some interesting/troubling points with your remarks about jobs. Yes, it might be the trendy thing these days to bounce around a hundred jobs like a pinball, but trendy doesn't necessarily mean good.

For one thing, my primary interest in a job would be to acquire a family; to enter into a close-knit "clan" with my co-workers. Thus, losing my job would mean losing my family. I know we live in this new, darwinistic world where everything is disposable and replacable, from the $1000 phones we replace every year to the people closest to us. But frankly, if a person is someone I truly appreciate, then they are not disposable to me and to suggest otherwise would be an unconcionable insult to them. Thus, a job and the family that comes with it, is for life as far as I'm concerned. Pinballing around through a sea of nameless, faceless, disposable nobodies just because "job bouncing is the done thing these days", seems like an awful fate. I know a lot of people actually choose to prolong their lives like that, but I honestly and truly can't fathom why.

For another thing, you really need to be careful with jobs if you care about making this world a better place, as there is a shocking scarcity of jobs that actually give people the opportunity to do this. You don't want to get roped in to a bad job and find that your committed to a course that does no good.

"I find it interesting that you want to be told how to think, how to behave and what to do. Don't you believe that any satisfaction could be gained in life by finding these things out for yourself.... you know, by lived experience? By trying this and then trying that... finding out what feels 'right' for you? Does this idea appeal to you in any way, shape or form?"

I'm not sure I completely understand you, but here's my thoughts on what I think your saying:

I want to be good. To be good means to give happiness to others, or at the very least, to minimize the misery you inflict. To give happiness to others I need to know what they want from me. Otherwise, my endeavors will be far more prone to causing misery and distress.

Even from a less selfless point of view, engaging with other people for personal benefit requires an understanding of what they want. The reason for interacting with society is essentially a trade deal where you do things for the society and they do things for you. Trade being the operative word there - they tend to not be inclined to help you out if you aren't doing anything they want. Therefore, you need to know what they want from you in order to maintain a healthy trade relation with them.

My trouble is, I can't figure out what the hell the people around me want. Nor how to engage with them for mutual happiness.

See, the matter is further complicated by the ethics of the golden rule (not the one @JoseJones was talking about ) : "Treat others how you want them to treat you." There's an element of advertizement to this rule. For example, say I treat someone in a manner that is pleasing to them, this subconciously advertizes that I want to be treated this way, too. Hence, there comes a massive dillema when it appears that people around you wish to be treated in a manner that you would find deeply offensive. So, are you supposed to treat others "your" way, thereby offending them, even though you don't want to hurt anybody? Or do you treat them "their" way, pleasing them, but then inviting treatment that you find extremely upsetting? It makes the trade arrangement impossible to figure out when you can't possibly please others without advertizing a false set of desires for yourself.

Regarding getting personally drawn in to numerous singles groups: I know first hand that this is (no offense) a bad idea. I was actually involved with a group of people once upon a time and the relationship turned sour. I couldn't be what they wanted me to be, which made them bitter, which led to them harassing me, which frankly left me wounded and bitter myself.

I know for a fact that there's a great many people, perhaps a majority of people, who would love to not have to share a planet with a person like me. And unfortunately I am also intimately aware that there are many people who I would love to not have to share a planet with. Great care must be taken to insure that we don't comingle to any significant degree. Only badness can come from it.

"You said that your psychologist was doing fairly well in life; she seemed to be successful in her chosen career - she was on T.V. and such. Then why assume that she would be hurt by a single patient leaving her practice? Couldn't it also be a possibility that she would be happy to have one less patient and a little bit more free time up her sleeve?"

I have to admit your right, there's potential that she might have liked losing a patient to ease her workload. Then again, perhaps not. Perhaps she didn't want anymore spare time then she already had. Perhaps she simply had dreams of living a life where people would come in to her office, then leave saying "Thank you so much, Dr....., You made my life worthwhile! Your so awesome!"

I can't say whether she wanted me to keep seeing her, but I can't say she wanted me to stop either. But either way, leaving without a good excuse (of which I couldn't think of one) and basically telling her she was rubbish (which, as I've previously remarked, couldn't possibly have been sufficiently sugar-coated), seems like an awful thing to do, even if she got some much-desired free time out of it. Kind of like the reward wouldn't be worth the cost, you know?

"It's a kind-hearted approach on your behalf but this type of behavior, where you put other people's needs way ahead of your own personal growth, may not serve you well in the long run."

But what's the alternative? Aren't people who only care about their own interests, regardless of whether or not they have to hurt others to get what they want bad people? I don't want to be a bad person. And I can't say I know too many people who want there to be more bad people in the world. But maybe they do. I don't undertstand the people around me. I don't understand my society.

"The fact that you couldn't stand the woman would have sigificantly impacted on the theraputic process, because you would not have been able to genuinely open up to her."

I am sure that my distaste for my therapist interfered with the therapy! I spent most of my time with her trying to block out her poisonous words to minimize the damage she did! It didn't take me all that long to realize that she was not a person I wanted messing around with my head, so I spent most of my therapy trying very hard to stop her ideas from taking hold. I was moderately successful.

Thank you for your kind thoughts and wishes and considderate advice. And no, I didn't find it too critical.

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Hi Chibam,

great to hear back from you! You are so right - there is no easy way to know what others want from you (if, indeed, they want anything). Different people may want different things, depending on the relationship they have with you. It may also depend on their individual personality, the life experiences they are going through, their cultural expectations, their age, gender and their prior experiences. So there are a lot of variables - you may be able to name a few more!

If you are unsure, you could always ask them. If you form a friendship with someone, then you could say things like "Can I ask you a personal question: do you find me too opinionated/shy/pushy/elusive?" I know I lot of people would be flattered to know that their opinion matters to you enough to ask these type of questions. However, many people are too polite and will only give you a very kind and gentle reply that does not shed any light on what they really think! This is quite normal, as most people are like you and do not want to cause any harm; they only want to be 'good'.

I must say that this is something I stuggle with myself. Even with a friend I have had for 20 years now, I don't like to say the wrong thing to her and risk upsetting her. Even if I have a criticism that I feel is extrememly relevant, I try to express it in a very gentle way, through fear of causing her to dislike me. I think everyone just wants to be liked and accepted for who they truly are. They would prefer to go through life without too much criticism, as it can be painful.

The "Golden Rule" is very helpful and you will find variations of it in all the major religions - proving that all human beings have a basic understanding that it is good to treat others with respect and kindness. Of course, there are some problems with 'The Golden Rule' which is something the author Richard Bach addresses in his wonderful book "Illusions". You might like to read something like to read that book, as I think it relates to the questions you have posed yourself.

Chibam - I also get the feeling you might like to read philosophy.... as so many thinkers throughout the ages have tackled the questions you are asking. It is just extremely difficult to know which is the right way to live a life. There are possibly as many different "right ways" to live as there are people.

But what is the right way for You? That is what you have to explore. I'm no expert, but maybe start by naming the things you really love to do. What are they? And which people do you admire? What qualities draw you towards them? Who are your favorite writers and artists? Why?

As far as meeting people - if you do the things you love to do, you will probably naturally come across people who share your interests and who you can relate to. However, you may never find someone who is exactly 100% like you in every way. We are all slightly different; yet we are similar enough to be able to understand each other.

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Chibam,

as far as your former psychologist goes.... I am guessing that you are no longer seeing her? How did you get out of seeing her if you didn't want to hurt her? What finally brought you to sever the contact? Do you really feel you have done the right thing? Do you worry about her missing you now?

In my time, I have broken off contact with numerous G.P's, one psychiatrist, quite a few (very nice and helpful) therapists and plenty of former employers, too! Quite frankly, I have never looked back and I don't believe they have either.

You know, my former therapists may have felt that their job was done, as I obviously didn't need them any more! Or they could have thought that I must have got hit by a bus or moved to a different country. How knows? I guess if they were really concerned about me, they might have tried to call me or email me, but none of them did. Does this mean they were uncaring? No; I don't believe so. They fulfilled their roll within the confines of professional conduct and that is all they were obligated to do.

If you had 100's of patients to look after, would you try to locate each and every patient that moved on from therapy? I doubt it. Their professional body which they belong to probably does not advise this.... it could breach privacy laws, for one thing.

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

@Sahara,

I aggree, it'd be great way to be united with others if I could do what I love, but unfortunately there are very few opportunities for this available and laws/the beaurocracy/the system makes it extremely difficult - if not impossible - to do the things I'd love to do.

Yes, I am not seeing my psychologist any more. I got out because she said my life was good because I had enough money and therefore I didn't need therapy any more. Kind of weird because I don't recall having ever told her how much money I had, but she'd often been making commentary about my financial status, even though I don't think I ever told her how much money I had. Still, she's not the first person to seem to have ideas about my finances without me talking about them, so I don't know, maybe I give off some kind of signal that tells people what my finances are like.

I believe I did the best I could. A couple of times... hell, probably more then a couple, I kind of got a bit nasty with her and I do regret not restraining myself in that regard.

I agree, that having a good excuse to leave (like getting hit by a bus) is worth it's weight in gold. Unfortunately I didn't have that luxury. Her knowing too much about my circumstances limited my options for what I could believably tell her. Even "getting hit by a bus" probably wouldn't have worked for me as she had contact details for relatives of mine who I wouldn't have been able to count on backing me up in that regard. Also, I'd unfortunately gotten in to a medicare scheme that required me to sign away my doctor-patient privelage with my GP to get discounted therapy. So if she'd called my GP, my GP probably would've told her I hadn't been hit by a bus as he was no longer obligated to keep my medical condition private from her.

I'll admit, I really screwed myself over by not going in with an exit strategy. I'd just foolishly assumed that she was going to make my life better. Now, when anyone asks for my 2 cents regarding therapy, I advise them to definitely have their exit planned out before they go in.

I wouldn't think she misses me. But that's not the point. The point is that because I left cleanly, nobody told her that she sucks. Nobody attacked her. She can't feel the hatred directed towards her. I did no damage to her. And ultimately, I suppose that was the only degree of control I suppose I had in that situation. I could either say something awful to her - that she was a crap therapist - or abstain from it. I chose to show mercy. I suppose to a significant extent, I did so hoping that karma might repay me in similar fashion. Kind of a stupid basis for a choice I guess, considdering I don't even really believe in that kind of stuff. But when your desperate, I guess you clutch at straws.

But in any event, I know I did the right thing and so I don't have to live with the personal shame of having hurt someone.

Do you ever dream of a future where mankind is incapable of hurting one another? Where we are incapable of inflicting the malice and misery that we did during the holocaust, or in the torture chambers of the middle ages, or even in modern-age abusive households? Do you ever dream of a future where nobody can bring themselves to willingly inflict pain on another? I do. I think that future begins with the choices we make today.

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Hey, Chibam,

I was kind of joking about "getting hit by a bus".

I'm with you in that I think it is good to have an exit strategy for many things you attempt in life. I am a bit surprised that your former therapist seemed to go to so much trouble to keep in contact with you - like wanting you to email her every day. I don't know what others think... but to me this seems unusual.

I really think it should be as easy as calling up the therapist's secretary, cancelling you next appointment and then saying you will call back as soon as you know a time when you can reschedule. Then just never call back! Bingo. It seems to work for me.

You don't even have to speek to the therapist herself. Why should you? She is not your mother!

If she emails you- well you could just not answer... then direct all her emails straight to your junk mail so that you don't even have to see them.

If she calls you, you could just direct all her calls straight to your voice mail so as you don't have to answer them. I suppose you were just too worried about hurting her feelings to do these things.

But really, as long as you were up to date in paying the therapist's bill, then you should have a clear conscience.

Do you have a lot of trouble leaving things or being left by others? Is this something that really bothers you?

I think I am just great at leaving! I am a leaver. Whoever it is or whatever it is - I can leave and always leave with ease. I think perhaps that in my past there were situations that I should have left but didn't, for whatever reason. Now I might have gone over to the other extreme. There are times I might leave too soon; maybe.

For example, if I want to leave a party early - I just excuse myself to go to the loo, but instead of going to the loo, I just walk on out the front door and leave. It saves having to come up with an excuse about why you are leaving and then be bugged by people to stay on, when you really don't want to. You might be worried about what other people think, but the truth is, people don't really think.... they are usually only concerned with themselves and their own enjoyment.

I suppose I believe that people in general are a lot more concerned with their own selves and a lot less interested in what I, myself, do. I don't think my actions have a huge impact on others and I am happy to go on believing that for now.

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

@Sahara

Sorry for leaving you hanging. I've been real busy lately.

"I am a bit surprised that your former therapist seemed to go to so much trouble to keep in contact with you - like wanting you to email her every day. I don't know what others think... but to me this seems unusual."

This caught me by surprise, too and was annoying even at the very beginning. After several months, it made me feel like a real prisoner who couldn't escape for more then 24 hours at a time. But I didn't fuss, out of fear that I'd be branded "uncooperative" and she'd refuse to help me. Just another reason why it's such a kick in the pants to find out now that she was never going to help me.

On the exceedingly off chance that I ever went to a therapist again, I'd be extremely tempted to simply tell them I don't have internet, so that there'd be no risk of me being roped in to a confining therapy regimen like this again. But I don't know if I could get away with that in this day and age? I mean it's practically impossible to live without internet these days.

"I really think it should be as easy as calling up the therapist's secretary, cancelling you next appointment and then saying you will call back as soon as you know a time when you can reschedule. Then just never call back! Bingo. It seems to work for me.

You don't even have to speek to the therapist herself. Why should you? She is not your mother!

If she emails you- well you could just not answer... then direct all her emails straight to your junk mail so that you don't even have to see them."

Actually, since I was emailing her every day, my appointment changes were never managed through the secretary; I just managed them directly with my therapist. Cancelling an appointment would've been one thing, but cancelling my emails would've been a more obvious snub without a good excuse, and I couldn't think of any good excuse. What you have to remember is that this therapist knew a disturbingly high level of detail about my life, as I'd initially gone in there desperate and trusting. She knew my circumstances and therefore knew that there were no openings for something that could've legitimately prevented me for being able to see her anymore.

Cold shouldering her emails to me... well, IMHO that'd be a bit obvious wouldn't it? It would be a clear snub.

"But really, as long as you were up to date in paying the therapist's bill, then you should have a clear conscience."

This is a really horrifying thought - that the only nerve people have is the one in their wallet. The only way you can hurt them is by depriving them of money. Is that truly the world I am trapped in? A nest of cold, amoeba-like organisms indiscriminately skulking around on a mindless, hollow protocol: acquire and retain money? Is that how I am to see the denizens of this nightmarescape we call life? Mindless, generic money-grabbers?

My fear is that you are absolutely right. But then there is this absurd expectation that I ought to abstain from ending my life, and how can anyone seriously justify coercing people in to living in such a horrid place, dominated and defined by such horrid, hollow inhabitants? If there is this assertion that I'm supposed to remain here in life, then that assertion dictates there must be hope that there is goodness in humanity.

I want to believe that people have hearts. I want to believe that a therapist lives to do good: to fix the lives of those who are suffering. I want to believe that a therapist's choice to continue living and participating in this world is dependant on a noble personal requirement that her presence and participation is making this world a better place. And therefore I want to believe that the most grievous way you can harm a therapist is not to deprive her of money, but to make her believe that she is not an asset to her world, but rather a dead weight or perhaps even a poison.

There are people out there who *need* help! That is not a hyperbola, they litterally cannot make it on their own! So to think that the only entities out there in the world are heartless money-grabbing animals... How can anybody claim with a straight face that a world like that is worth living in?

I just hope your wrong... but I fear you are not.

"Do you have a lot of trouble leaving things or being left by others? Is this something that really bothers you?"

Generally, no.

As a matter of fact, some of the greatest reliefs of my life were when others who bullied or exploited me finally decided to leave me alone/let me go. On a similar note, having my therapist say that I didn't need therapy anymore was an immense relief. There wasn't even a hint of bittersweetness about it, it was all good, because it meant I was free from her once and for all.

That being said, I do think that letting someone know you want to be rid of them is a pretty nasty insult to deal, so these desires really ought to be consealed as best we can, as a matter of decency.

"For example, if I want to leave a party early - I just excuse myself to go to the loo, but instead of going to the loo, I just walk on out the front door and leave. It saves having to come up with an excuse about why you are leaving and then be bugged by people to stay on, when you really don't want to. You might be worried about what other people think, but the truth is, people don't really think.... they are usually only concerned with themselves and their own enjoyment."

That has not been my experience. I've found that if I don't give a convincing enough impression that I want to stay with people, they will get quite vindictive about it and start spreading unpleasant roumers about me. It's bad enough that they deliberately try to make others uncomfortable, but it hits close to home when they use me as a tool to do it.

Not to mention it ruins any hope of making a connection with someone new. I have literrally had strangers tell me that I'm a loser, ect., because roumers about me, spread by people who I failed to politely tollerate to their degree of liking, decided to pollute those people's impression of me before I even met them! Then, because I didn't take kindly to being insulted, those second wave of people started spreading roumers themselves about me being a coward!

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?


@chibam wrote:

@Sahara

Cold shouldering her emails to me... well, IMHO that'd be a bit obvious wouldn't it? It would be a clear snub.

Hi @chibam,

that's my point; it would be a clear snub. She would have no-where to go with it. She would have to leave you alone.

I don't think it's too horrifying a thought that people who work hard in their profession are interested primarily in making money. I think it's pretty normal. Perhaps they start out being quite altruistic, but people have to survive somehow; they have to pay their bills.

Your therapist was not your personal friend; she was someone in your employ.

I don't think the world is a particularly cruel place, but I agree that there are people out there who start rumors about others, purely for entertainment - but they are going to do it anyway, no matter how you treat them and what you do. If they have decided that they like to spread rumors; then let them. They will only attract other people who are like-minded and they will never true friends to you, anyway.

In response to: Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

Re: How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

"I don't think it's too horrifying a thought that people who work hard in their profession are interested primarily in making money. I think it's pretty normal. Perhaps they start out being quite altruistic, but people have to survive somehow; they have to pay their bills."

But on what basis do they come to the conclusion that it is right for them to survive? Because frankly, everything I've gone through suggests that the world would be a better place if they stopped surviving. I know I spent most of my time in therapy hoping that my therapist would keel over, because then I'd be free. Everytime a news story came on about a road fatality or some orther incident with a death toll, I'd cross my fingers that she'd be a part of it and I was always a little disappointed when she wasn't.

That's the problem with mindless survival dogma. When something survives simply for the sake of surviving, it tends to show little inclination towards doing good; because doing good is not an essential requirement of survival. And when something has little or no inclination to strive for goodness, it makes no effort to steer against inadvertantly doing bad that may arise from taking the most advantageous route to assured survival. Thus survivors are naturally prone to being bad things. They usually don't seek to be evil, but they don't care about avoiding it either. So again, I ask, by what basis do they conclude that surviving is what they ought to do?

It's hard not to draw a parallel between people like this and cancer cells; soulless organisms that thrive and expand because that's what their corrupted genetic blueprint has programmed them to do - completely unsympathetic to the agony it causes. All it "cares" about is its own survival.

But you are right: it probably is pretty normal. That's why it's so horrifying.

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