How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?

@chibam,

I think by describing it as a "golden rule", I have probably overstated it and given you the impression that the counselling profession doesn't want to help! Basically what I meant was captured perfectly by the @Sahara when she said.

"In my experience, as a client in counselling, a therapist does not exactly offer you 'advice' as such. They allow you to explore all the possibilities and also open your eyes to new possibilities you may not have yet considered. It's still up to you to make your own choices; no-one can live your life for you!

Everyone has their own individual values, personality traits, goals and ethical frameworks. So different people would make different decisions, even when placed in the exact same circumstances. So a therapist can not exactly tell you what to do."

A counsellor can help you generate ideas, direct you towards options and possibilities, open up things that you may not have considered and facilitate your coming up with a plan of action. I suppose to some extent this may be considered "giving advice". There is a tendency to avoid being overly prescriptive and directly "telling someone what to do", because what works for one person may not work for another. But a counsellor can point you in the right direction in terms of "what can be done".

I'm sorry to hear you've had such difficult therapy experiences. It sounds like you came out of your therapy experience feeling quite diminished and undermined.

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@chibam wrote:

@Sahara:

“It's still up to you to make your own choices; no-one can live your life for you!”

But isn’t this really hippocrytical? I mean the very reason we remain alive is because ending it would be offensive/distressing to our community. We live because we have a moral duty to minimize the anguish we inflict on others. How can we be expected to be good people if the ones around us won’t tell us what they want us to do? And on a somewhat more selfish level, how can we achieve an amicable system of favor-trading with our community if they won’t tell us what we need to do to please them and thereby earn an entitlement of assistance from them?

Conversely, if our lives are our own, then why aren’t we free to leave it whenever we want to? Why do we expect suicidal people care more about averting their family’s agony then putting an end to their own?

If your life is yours then shouldn’t you be morally be free to conclude it at your discretion? If it’s your society’s then shouldn’t there be a clarification about what they want from you?

I can’t see how they can have it both ways.

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@chibam I think part of the reason that people stay alive is, yes, partly because they do not want to hurt their loved ones. But I also think there is more to it. Many people have moved beyond feeling suicidal, to find that they can lead happy lives. So I think while a sense of responsibility to our friends and family is one aspect, I think there are other aspects of deciding to live too.

@ivana:
Not a problem. I got out of therapy several years ago. I had grand ambitions that once I got free of her, things would be a lot brighter. Sadly, that effect has been far more muted then I expected: the wounds I gathered there still hurt. But don’t get me wrong, I am much better off being free of her.

Re: finding someone better… well, truth be told, there’s a large “once bitten, twice shy” element deterring me from going back. But on the more clear-headed front, going by the various responses I’ve seen in this thread it looks like even the best therapy has nothing of value to offer, anyway.

@RabbitsMum: (again )

I’ve always hated the idea of being mean to others, even if they deserve it. In fact, I get a great surge of pride when I can get through an awful ordeal without lashing out that the people who made it so bad. I felt very proud of myself for getting through all my therapy without insulting the therapist, even though I hated her with every fiber of my being.

There’s a lot of reasons why I aspire towards compassion. I think I’d be writing for ages if I went in to detail and it’s already getting kinda late. But I suppose a big part of it is that if I was a therapist, the last thing I would ever want would be for someone to tell me that I was a crap therapist. Now, I know that there would’ve been any number of ways that I could’ve sugarcoated that message in polite language if I’d chosen to say it to mine, but the underlying message would’ve been impossible to disguise. I desperately needed help, we both knew that, so for me to discard her in a time of desperate need would’ve only had one logical explanation, that she was a badness – a negative element that I want to expel from my life. That’s an awful thing to say, even in a veiled manner, to someone. I am so glad I didn’t do that to her.

I think I understand what you are trying to say. I’m not trying to contradict you, but I guess I’m just trying to explain that it’s important for me to try to be a good person as much as I can. Because if I ever decided it was okay to slack off in being good, it scares me to think how bad I might become.

I know people who cast nothing but misery upon the world and all who cross their paths, because considdering others’ feelings is inconvenient to them, and why should they have to put up with that? I never want to be like that. I want to stay as far away from that as humanly possible.

Hey. Seriously good question.

In my experience, there is no one person or therapist or thing that can do all of those things. We are complex & social beings, & recovery is complex too.

I've been traversing the aust mental /health system for about 22 years now, on & off. I have had plenty of crap therapists, some average ones, some good ones and a few amazing ones. Same for GP's.

It is beyond frustrating when you are suffering to constantly hear the "just talk to someone/ask for help" line, because it feels like 95% of the time when you do, the care & support that you get is so not enough its a joke. And not a funny one! And sometimes its damaging, like your experience sounds.

So a few things I've gleaned over the years on how to find a good therapist:

• a recommendation from someone who you respect, who knows their stuff and gets you is ideal
• trust your instincts. If you see someone a few times and you know you're not getting much out of it, look for someone else
• look for someone who's got similar values
• learn a bit about therapy and mental health...it gets easier to spot good & bad ones faster if you have even a small idea of what they should/shoudn't be doing
• being your own advocate and being proactive in your wellbeing is probably even more important than finding one great therapist
• because it can take some effort to find a good therapist, it can be difficult when you're really unwell. Help from someone that you trust is maybe the best way to deal with this. Also maybe to take the help you can get, and keep looking for something better/ more when you can.

On the bigger question of how to get some actual help, the thing that is finally working for me is to have quite a few different kinds of support (best quality as I can find), as well as daily & weekly practices to help me maintain & improve my health/wellbeing/head/whatever.

Some of the things that are working for me at the moment are (I'm sure they won't all apply to you, maybe it might give you ideas?) - good gp, good psychiatrist, meds sorted, I go to NA, I have a sponsor, I have a drug & alcohol counsellor, I do day programs weekly at my local private mental health clinic, I have a daily routine (which I am getting better at sticking to!), I excercise daily, get enough sleep, I eat ok, I take good vitamins, I'm learning about mental health, I practice mindfulness daily (with apps on my phone), I make an effort to keep in contact with friends & family, mostly I try and be kind to myself in my head...that is probably the hardest and most helpful. I'm just getting to the point where I want to & have some energy to give back & contribute to other people, which I'm really grateful for (oh yeah & practice gratitude 🙂

It's taken me months & months to build all of this up (very slowly!). After years of feeling stuck & hopeless I am finally now in recovery, and it is more than worth the effort. Looking at my little list I can see that I have so many things going on, that if one thing changed I would still be ok, and I would then still be able to deal with it.

The best therapy thing I've come across is ACT (acceptance & commitment therapy). There's some great stuff online about it. A lot of people like CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy). There's other good stuff like WRAP, GROW, The Science of Happiness MOOC on EdX, This Way Up, etc.

I hope I heard/understood what you were saying. I hope I haven't offended you in anyway, and have maybe said anything that might be helpful. Mostly I want you to know that I think I've been through some similar stuff, and I care.

Best wishes.

@JoseJones:

I’m sorry for dissing your profession earlier. I guess once I started reflecting on my therapy, my mouth (fingers) started running away without me.

Giving someone a list of choices is one thing, but when there’s no apparent candidate that stands out as a logical or likely route to what they need, then shouldn’t the therapist be able to offer a recommendation of the most favourable course? And, if need be, recommend the nessesary tweaks to make to the course to steer the patient where they ultimately want to go?

Additionally, where is the patient supposed to go if the options the therapist provides are so vague that they become nonsensical? For example, take @Sahara’s earlier suggestion of joining a singles’ group. With all due respect, that means diddly squat to me. I know that there are probably a lot of people who could take that instruction, expand that into an itinerary of steps to follow, and have a brand new band of BFFs by the end of the day. But to me, that’s just a nonsensical, impossible to follow direction. You might as well tell me to go pray in the high temple of the lost city of gold. I have no idea where to even begin following either of those instructions. Isn’t there anybody who can clarify the specifics? That’s what I really need.

@CherryBomb:

But my original point still stands. Okay, theoretically we can be overall happy and indeed willing to continue surviving. But many, many people don’t have this happiness. I think we can all agree that (for virtually all cases) this is not by choice, nor by an unwillingness to be happy. Who actually wants to be unhappy? I would suggest that in most cases, people are unhappy because they don’t know how to get happiness.

With that in mind, isn’t it wrong to refuse to offer these lost people directions to their happiness? Especially if we are going to maintain a rather stringent demand that they continue to live?

I don't seem to have the art of the reply section as yet so bear with me.

@chibam. Yes, a singles group was obviously a good suggestion for you. You asked how to find one with a perspective similar to your own. You may not because that group will be comprised of many people from various backgrounds and although they may, for example, read that groups blurb and relate to it, they are bound to respond differently to others. This said, let Google be your friend. Google search "Single Meetups" or "Social singles" - or permuataions of the same - in the city or place you live. Read what they do and say. I think those that are say offering walking groups as well as some social interaction are perhaps preferable because they don't come across as a meat market. Speed dating intro events might suit you in the sense that you only have three or so minutes with one person and then you move on and only exchange details if you click. You might sit with five people maximum and walk away with no contacts. You might have one. Up for grabs.

We know that some sites are not the best so you need to read that website material and perhaps then Google "X site reviews" and see if others have commented. But aim for those where sex and actual relationships are slightly downplayed and socialisation is more emphasised perhaps.

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Re this comment "But isn’t this really hippocrytical? I mean the very reason we remain alive is because ending it would be offensive/distressing to our community. We live because we have a moral duty to minimize the anguish we inflict on others. How can we be expected to be good people if the ones around us won’t tell us what they want us to do?"

I do not mean this to sound as silly as it first might BUT, if you want a relationship/society where people tell you what to do, you can opt for a BDSM one and become a submissive to a dominant woman and join a similar group. That is the closest to a scenario where you will be told what you need to do, how to act etc to be in favour and accepted. You would negotiate a basic contract with your dominant and then just lead your life according to that agreement.

Other than that, there are cults but I would avoid them like the plague. You may tend to emphasise others just telling you what to do because you are frustrated, at the end of your tether and wonder how to achieve your desires.

I wonder re the money matter you mentioned and the psychologist...did you talk about lack of funds for socialisation or that some women you had met seemed to expect you to pay for them all the time? Or did she suggest things you said you could not afford? Or similar? I'm not convinced that people are attracted to money as much as they are attracted to achievement. Sure, there are those sugar babes sites etc which are geared towards rich people but in general, I think people warm to achievers; people with direction and who are basically content with their lot but aiming to evolve in particular ways.

@RabbitsMum,
Wow! You know I think I've gotten closer to receiving some actual help from your free post then I did from 7 years of therapy!

Re: the whole BDSM thing… Your probably getting close with that one; but what I’m really after is a relationship where my wife and I are on the same page; where I can truly relate to her and vice-versa. I’ve been surrounded by incomprehensible foreigners for my entire life and I am sick to death of it. I just want one person who I really get and vice-versa - one person who makes me feel like an actual part of something beyond myself. That just wouldn’t work in a situation where wifey is the boss-lady who understands the environment and I’m the clueless slave who dutifully obeys her instructions. How could we relate to one another if she is someone who understands the world we’re in and I don’t?

What would be more appropriate would be a situation where both me and the missus are co-slaves to an overall management entity/corporation/government/ect. With a stipulation, of course, that whatever we are tasked with doing, we are not separated - we work as an indivisible pair. That way, we are both equals. Even if we are still trapped in a nonsensical world, at least we are comforted by the fact that neither one of us understands what’s going on and that we have a devoted comrade who we can relate to, understand, sympathize with, support, and receive support from. We will not be alone anymore.

Of course, for this situation to be optimal it requires the master to be an ethical entity more preoccupied with improving life rather then prolonging it. But I have to admit that even in a worse-case scenario (master-wise), it’s still a better situation then I’m in now, with my wife in the scenario.

Cults, in theory, are a tremendously promising option; but as you imply, they do tend to lend themselves to corruption, don’t they? It’s a shame. The raw concept has such wonderful promise. Imagine: being able to live somewhere where you can relate to everyone you see - because you all serve a common goal. Imagine being able to respect everyone around you for their understandable and admirably selfless ethics, and to actually be able to enjoy their company. Imagine never feeling like an alien. Also, those cult groups tend to be small enough for everyone to know each other’s name and for them to genuinely care about one another.

But in reality, they tend to be places where the evil exploit the trusting, don’t they? Still, it’s not like life outside said cults is decisively better. Whether it’s mindless societal convention and the powers that be, or just one self-declared “high priest”, someone or something will always exploit your kindness., if you have any.

The Google thing feels like a step in the right direction, but I still think it needs a human element of refinement. Like I said in one of my previous replies, getting involved with a “wrong” group can be a very toxic experience. That’s where a therapist could be of real use. If there was a way I could hire one to wade through said groups and weed out the duds/refine the list down to the leading candidate who seems most in-line with me, that would probably be the first value for money I ever got out of the industry, and probably worth paying even more then $200 and hour for, if I had to.

Not to mention any research she did on the prospective groups out there would doubtlessly be useful for all her other clients, too.

In terms of the financial issues with my therapist… I don’t recall ever mentioning my money status or anything related to money to my therapist. As I said, money was never really an issue that weighed on my mind much - my other problems were far more dire. To the best of my recollection, money was a subject that *she* bought up.

I’ve never had much opportunity to meet women, so there’s never been an issue with a woman wanting me to buy her stuff. In terms of her (the therapist) suggesting something that I couldn’t afford… maybe something like that did happen. I wouldn’t have paid much attention to an incident like that if I thought that the suggestion was a load of rubbish anyway. I wouldn’t have fretted about not being able to afford something I didn’t even want, but she probably could’ve made a fuss about money out of that.

Just for you to consider now. Re this from you

"The Google thing feels like a step in the right direction, but I still think it needs a human element of refinement. Like I said in one of my previous replies, getting involved with a “wrong” group can be a very toxic experience. That’s where a therapist could be of real use. If there was a way I could hire one to wade through said groups and weed out the duds/refine the list down to the leading candidate who seems most in-line with me, that would probably be the first value for money I ever got out of the industry, and probably worth paying even more then $200 and hour for, if I had to."

Is a psychologist the right professional with the needs you have and the way you are oriented towards wanting someone to filter and help you assess? I tell you, some would suggest 'life coach' although I tend to flinch a little from those sorts of role descriptions. But in reading this paragraph, why not seek and pay for a good executive assistant? Someone perhaps retired who only wants a few hours work a week. Or a new parent with same desires.

You could easily approach receuitment agencies and or advertise on well-known career sites like career.one. I supect this sort of approach would satisfy you far more than trying to request direct analytical assessment from a counsellor who is not generally trained to provide that. There are few theories in the mental health arena that advocate direct...well...direction. Go to a different profession who you can feel confident know how to assess without bias. Researchers also do this sort of work.

Think laterally.

If you found this helpful, you can offer me a cyber coffee in lieu of the $200 fee. 🙂

@RabbitsMum,

Well, this brings me back to my original question: "How Do You Get *ACTUAL* Help?" Looks like I've finally got some answers to my question!

Life coaches & executive assistants sound much more promising then therapists. Thank you!

Please forgive my ignorance, but... cyber coffee - is that like a paypal thing?

No, but it should have been a gem set included in the original Super Mario. Eight cyber coffees and you get to do the "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" side game.

And researcher. Add that to your list.

I think if you can remove all the emotive evocative side - from the process in meeting your goals I mean - that you will be far better off.

If this was a research question it would be phrased something like:

1. What do I need to do in order to generate a loving soulmate partnership within a large support circle and community?

The initial process:

1. Define What You Want. (Ticked off as you have done this already)

2. Propose a process to achieving that. (Ticked off because you've already decided this too. In this case it is reviewing singles meetups groups - and similar - and knowing the philosophy of each, what they emphasise and how they operate.

The sub-process now would be to perhaps get the person to set up a table of those elements across the top with the name of the group and contact details on the left vertical.

You want someone to understand the systematic process, to perhaps add an 'additional comments' section to note more idiosyncratic qualities of individual groups, and to just state fact and quote from the sites where deemed important.

3. They go away and whirr around the project and present you with a report. You will obtain the most unbiased approach if you actually don't tell your consultant/reseacher what values you are seeking. Perhaps ask them to do an initial comparative of ten groups closest to your suburb and THEN you would work with the person to refine. In other words you may see some things that are just a complete turn off to you so you ask the person to just remove XZY from the next ten automatically.

What a psychologist can help you with is, for example, learning how to be reflexively analytical in a way that services you. For example, are there times when you basically starting achieving but for some reason just shoot yourself in the foot? Analysing thought patterns and mindsets that work against our own betterment are the work of 'good' counsellors,

I recommend you leave the work of most of this to someone outside the mental health field and, once again, treat it like a short term research project.