This is unbearable.

Plodding through this, @Appleblossom. I just don't know what to make of this world and its inhabitants otherwise.

Thank you so much for your response to what is, for me, a very real spiritual crisis, @creative_writer. I need to resolve this in accordance with my experiences, observations, serious discussions and considerations, and I don't just want to take this path in desperation. It has to be real. 💖

@Historylover , yes it does have to be real. Spirituality isn't only about religion either, though religion can be a big part of it, it's about what gives you a sense of purpose and meaning in life ❤️

@Historylover Its a very wounded and beautiful world, like a lot of people. I see religion as a way of people reaching for the stars ... yes beliefs are made manifest in the world... in many ways.

In the church I am attending ... I immediately clicked with 3 nerdy theological types. One had a Phd in new Testament studies, one was a reitred minister and one the current minister. Then sadly the current minister .. a she ... became sick and left ... and the Phd fellow left ... but I still click pretty well with the retired minister ... and have found an unexpected friend there ... and have decided it is alright for me to be aprt-time person there. Honestly .... all the members are different ... quite different .... in the style of their beliefs, and the intensity ... I am alright with a broad church.

I have also engaged with many different styles of Christianity, some I find godly, some not.

I had too much ... dogmatic religion imposed on me as a child. Miracles, Real Presence, a range of Doctrines ... all sorts. No discussion. No questioning. If my father would have remained alive, I believe he would have found an intellectual way to engage with me as well spiritual ... so sometimnes he is my Our Father in Heaven ... for me ... I am very metaphorical and embrace much of science, but I do not like science playing god. Honouring a higher power, being, deity, god, seems important in humans maintaining some humility and respect. I care about idealism and bringing out the good in people. Sometimes religion is great at that, sometimes not.

What you believe is what you really believe. That you care is Huge.

@Appleblossom, Thank you for the post but I'm just not up to responding at the moment.

I like what you have said, @Appleblossom. And you're right, it's an individual thing and I am very wary of churches that try to impose a single viewpoint. I also think it is very important, in deciphering, to separate a Creator from Jesus until 'all the facts are in'.

Was Jesus really the son of a Creator? Why did he suddenly arrive? And are Jesus' words profound or are we conditioned to be in awe of anything to do with him? This is a serious question, because I also ask the same question of religious art in all its forms. They have an inbuilt preconditioned religious response; it is ingrained.

I saw Ste. Chapelle on television within the last few days, and it is the most beautiful construction!! Where would the western world be without the magnificent structures and music that came from religion. God certainly got man's best workmanship!!

Alas! It seems that this is an interminable question. The more I learn, the less I'm convinced either way and I find myself back on the fence with it all, although leaning towards a Creator. Some wonderful YouTube videos with scientific 'for' arguments, but the science is way over my head. I reason that that is a starting point and we build from there, but I have to find other things to occupy my life.

I'm so tired of life, and tired of people who live to hurt me. It hurts to live, and now I have to spend several days without running water because my hot water system exploded. I guess it will take my mind off the profound and back to the mundane.

I am rather lost in it all, @creative_writer. I have just watched a discussion between an atheist and a Christian, and I have to ask—what is the point to life if, at each generation, we are just here to advance another generation of evolution, and that generation's advancing knowledge, if there is no ultimate purpose to it all? What does it lead to? What will have been the purpose? There has to be one.

@Historylover

Love that you said : "my mind off the profound and back to the mundane." Somehow I feel that is profound in itself. Hope its fixed soon. Exploding is not good ... Mine is over 20 years old and I am waiting til In fix my other plumbing problem ... a saga ... my son has limited bathroom, but we can function ... but the insurance is dragging its feet and the mould could be getting worse ... they say they will talk to me tomrw! Its been 4 months

.

Needing to deal with practicalities from a young age and probably the early abandonment made me very conscious of yearning ... and seeking ... and yes first orphanage was with nuns. It was not the worst. I was impacted by the educational and charity sides of religion rather than theological.... became interested in that later... little bit by little bit ... but now significant collection of books ... including the Koran.

Loved that @creative_writer said "curiosity is good for the soul ..."

Have an extended family that has been involved in religious art ... sculpture, leadlight, painting, embroidery ...as well as the music ...

Took my mother to a wonderful exhibition at the Vic Art gallery on it about 15 years ago.... loved the variety of historical and modern interpretations ...

About 7 years ago I looked at youtubes re religion vs science debates ... but not that bothered to chase up details that much. In a way I was lucky I taught catechetics when I was young 13 ... which focussed on Creation ... so when I got to choose subjects at school late 70s .. it seemed logical for me to choose science. Not that I went that deep ... but I am lucky I have been scientifically literate enough .. to have a sense of things.

In the 1980s ... had a massive Philosophy text ... that included a section with arguments for a Creator God ... they seemed quite stilted to me back then ... and I saw them as historical ... and a way of seeking understanding more than fact. Mental constructions. It seems the way many humans are wired ... HomoSapiens ... we like to think ... but it can get us in trouble ... and tie us up in knots.

Maybe that is why I can accept holding a range of understandings. I find dogmatic types ... very offputting and do not take their emphatic statements as proof of superior mysitical or moral knowledge but of their own narrow mindedness ... often it is tied into what is called ... Prosperity Gospel ... ie when people use their success ... to show that God was on thier side. My mnother also played a game that my brother spoke of ... when I was about 15 ... that she was always closest to god .. sadly he was in the grip of similar feelings and thoughts before he died and never grounded himself in his own experiences. I thought he was wonderful, but he got confused. I really do not like Godliness competitions. I like the open genuine and thoughtful approaches.

You must have heard ... that saying about God being brought down on both sides of an argument. I just try and understand the life presented to me ...