This is unbearable.

@Historylover I apologize for what was probably a careless and inconsidderate response back there. Religion can be a touchy subject for me; particularly when it highlights the core factors that make the culture surrounding me so differant from myself, and hence, why I am so alone.

I can be prone to lashing out at the differant views in the world when my real grievance is my lack of company in my own worldview. There's no disease more foul then loneliness.

@chibam, I had been happy with my atheism, but my latest scientific considerations made me question my beliefs. I may well revert to holding my previous well-considered atheistic beliefs, but I just need to re-examine them.

I had been just trying to sound things out with people I regard as able to rationally consider information I present. Your response was upsetting, I admit, just as I realize your response was to being upset. Religion, as practised, has left some deep scars and has much to answer for. It also provides a cover for evildoers.

I used to have a psy to discuss these matters with, but now I am left floundering. It seems that to believe is to be unquestioning of the bible, and to question horrifies believers. If a set of beliefs doesn't hold up—a 6000-year-old universe, e.g.—after evidence to the contrary, it should be discarded, but that would require much editing of the bible, wouldn't it? And it throws people's established beliefs into discomforting confusion.

Your response caused me to knee-jerk respond by finding an open-doored church and talking with a ?parishioner. He made me realize that thinking is not allowed, and that my vitality and discernment had to be subdued. I'm not into being controlled by another or another's beliefs. We all are individuals and capable of independent thought. There is so much nonsense in my now, also, newly purchased bible that even extensive study would not answer my question as to whether there really is a 'God'/Creator of this universe. And was Jesus God's son or Joseph's? It's at the core of this religion and deserves serious consideration, I believe. There is a divide between a belief in christianity and the question as to whether the universe had a creator—they are separate issues— but I think the only ones who can answer that question are those who have trodden the same paths to the question as me.

Thank you for your apology. And I am sorry to have trampled on your wounds. It seems such wounds abound.

@Historylover I am so sorry to have upset you with my response. Interacting with people has never been a strength of mine, and that abrasiveness only becomes more of a problem the more I allow my core self to show. Sorry.

I can relate to your frustrations about "thinking not being allowed." Not that I have a "church" I belong to as such, but the wider world doesn't seem to appreciate people drawing their own conclusions from available evidance. Even if your differant from themselves, it's so easy for people to just step back and leave well enough alone if you fit in to a neat little pre-defined box like "Jew", "Muslim", "Hindu", "Buddhist", ect. But if you've developed your own views about what you want and don't want, then you need to be "corrected". Hardly surprising, I suppose. It's easier to pick on a lone individual then a group.

Well before I ever exposed myself to the mental health system, I turned to a supposed "friend" for help first. One of those people who were quick to deal out vague criticisms, but pointedly refused to state what she specifically wanted from me. She was a devoted Christian and, when I reached out for help, wasted no time in blaming all my woes on my atheism. "Pledge your allegiance to God and he'll give you a wife, a new home, and a job.", in a nutshell.

Absolutely finished me on ever turning to a devotedly religious person for help ever again. The last thing I need at my lowest point is to be preyed upon and bullied down a road that only leads me further away from where I need to be.

In retrospect, she wasn't all that differant from the therapists.

You know, for all this talk we frequently get about "compassion", across all lines of faith, all nations, and all races, we are still a predatory species. Our first instinct upon seeing the broken, suffering individual is to try to exploit their desparation in order to force their allegiance to our own cause. Nobody ever wants to help the enemy find his way home.

@chibam I've decided to leave this post here while I ponder further.

I'm just very lost at the moment, @chibam. I want to ask someone, anyone—how do we know that Jesus is the son of a creator/God? Whom do I ask? A religious person is going to say that we just do, and thereafter give me a wide berth, but that is an unsatisfactory answer and they know it.

And how do we know that Jesus actually did what he is said to have done? His followers at the time were going to say that he did marvellous things, weren't they? I wasn't a witness, so how do I know? I need verifiable evidence. I think these are reasonable questions and if they can't answer them, they are faking it and I am the only one being honest!

I think a creator is a reasonable hypothesis while I ponder it further, but I can't understand how Jesus dying for humanity's sins has helped mankind. It certainly didn't change mankind! Was Jesus a scapegoat too?

I don't know where to turn. Maybe I'm just clutching at straws, trying to find a reason to just keep putting one foot in front of the other. I think I need a skeptical, questioning Christian scientist! (not Christian Scientist!)

I see many parishioners as sanctimonious, unthinking sheep. How I'd love to find similar serious thinkers among them.

Your last paragraph summed up my thoughts precisely. I want to find a group of similar lone wolves to join as I think I would be able to find similar souls there, but it seems that they are all led by a chief predator and if push turned to shove, they would likely become predatory too.

Your interaction hurt but I understand its cause—so we're good! I respond similarly when what is being said is at odds with my experiences. Relationships weather these things. I'm truly sorry I rattled your sense of wellbeing, too. If this has also done so, there is no need to respond.

@chibam, I am coming from such a difficult place at the moment that my words are offending me. I have deleted them.

@chibam. please delete your post that supported my questioning. I've found my direction now and have deleted my own post and don't wish to leave you involved with what now feels disrespectful.

Gentle Hugs @Historylover I hope you know I really respect your thoughtful conversations with others including @chibam Gives me hope seeing thoughts similar to my own ... tho of course we are not exactly the same and nor should we strive for that.

Glad you are relating and finding a path.

For some reason my life journey has meant I have had to hold a lot of ambiguity, so I am used to it, and do not see it as a lack of commitment. I also know a few atheists who have been in the trenches ...

Gently Bently

Apple

@Historylover, normally I'm not generally a fan of doctoring transcripts, but since you've asked, I've emptied that previous post.

Sorry for whatever role I may have played in your currant spiritual turmoil. But I'm glad to hear that you seem to have settled on your direction now. I hope that's giving you some measure of comfort. 🙂