Difficulty telling people how I really feel.

Hi @Sahara

I am glad you are seeing your Dad tomorrow. It is hard to be around someone whom is grieving as it can bring one down. I understand. Also understand how unpleasant childhood memories can be when triggered being a survivor of childhood abuse. But yes, there will be no regrets. That's the main thing.

To help overcome any triggers I may experience in a similar situation, I try to place my full focus on the person whom is suffering and offer support. Treat them in the way I would like to be treated if in similar circumstances without judgement. We all make mistakes, I have made plenty. This helps me to not become trapped in my own anger/pain/anxiety/emotions. This may help you.

I am sure it's more to you than duty or you would not grieve. And at the end of the day you can come home and have peace knowing you did the right thing. Nothing worse than regrets in the end. And your Dad may be having some. Maybe this can be a step for healing for you both? At least we have to try. Let us know how it goes as I will be thinking of you. Hugs x

Thanks for that @Sahara, its helpful for me to know how others handle grief. You write well. I so relate to the heavy black cloud you must feel going into your childhood home. My parents are still in my childhood home - I have irrational fears and nightmares sleeping there, avoid that, I quietly call it 'the house of horrors " And the emotional dynamics - its like death before death being there (if you know what i mean), so depressing. I'm impressed you bother. Guess there is such a thing as 'the right thing to do' - so - best keep visits are short. Just go through the motions - do the best you can - that's all we can do 🙂

Thank you @Former-Member, sounds like you're further along the grief journey than me, and the breakdown recovery too. Its good for me to hear how you've 'done it' but seems I'm on the right track, similar to you.

I've been through an ugly divorce so think i understand a bit about the pain of estrangement. Like its a choice to leave us. But don't think I'd rather suffer death of a child over estrangement (as you indicated) - while there's life there's hope, plus - they still have their life to live in full - as it should be. With or without us.

But I hear what you're saying - that terrible rejection, injustice and betrayal... I call it 'living deaths' (living losses).

And having a grown daughter gone 'off the rails' - that's a living loss. I hardly ever see my adult children, its hard living alone.

I imagine good support can make the world of difference. Glad your hubby is "your rock"

I've braved the volunteer venture this last year, as part of my MH recovery program - it has helped confidence, purpose and strengthen my resilience re social anxiety. Feel useful again. And the people company takes the edge off aching loneliness. B

But winter blues just makes me wanna stay under the covers atm & all winter. lol 🌿

@Sahara, hhow did your visit with ya dad go? And the after affects? Hope ya OK 🌷🌿

Nice to receive a post from you @Former-Member Volunteer work is great isn't it, it helps to connect with others productively and prevents isolation and loneliness which causes depression;, also it gives purpose, a reason to get up purpose and it does help build confidence. It really helped hugely for me in overcoming agrophobia, depression and debilitating anxiety. Glad to read you are enjoying it.

You did misunderstand me a little - I found the grief of losing my children to estrangement (no contact at all for 15 years and will never see or hear from them "ever again for life as is with death as it is a death") I found it harder to get over losing them for life than losing my other child I lost through physical death for the reasons I stated. That's been my life experience.

Choosing to be dead to a loving mother for no reason at all other than the father gave them a ultimative that broke the strongest maternal bond in the world is the worse grief; there is no comparison to splitting up with a partner becoming estranged to him and then perhaps moving on to other relations to breaking a maternal bond and losing forever a child that can't be replaced. I think people have to go through it to truly understand.

Of course my surviving estranged children can have full lifes to pursue and make their own way which is a good thing, but it does not take away the undeserved trail of pain, hurt, rejection, loss of love,abandonment they chose to inflict freely that left mental scars on me for life. Those are the scars that make this type of death between a mother and children harder to get over than a physical one. I hope it never happens to them

But in time we do get over it and I have. And because what they and others have done to me I continue to struggle with self value. I do manage to still love the good in life when I can, especially the peaceful times spent with my hubby and friends. And who knows, my daughter who lives with us now may learn from her mistakes and go back to that lovely respectful girl we once raised again. Where there's life there is hope.

I was sorry to read you hardly ever see your daughters? When you do get to see them is it pleasant for you? Do they live far away? Do you socialise much on the weekends? . I hope you don't get too lonely. Hope you don't mind me asking as I would like to get to know you more. What days do you volunteer and what type of work do you do? Hope your evening has been a relaxing one. Hugs

@Sahara

Was going to ask you the same. How did it go with your Dad today? Does the family know now what is wrong with him. Thinking of you. Hugs 🤗

Hi @Former-Member & @Former-Member,

thank you both so much for writing and sharing your thoughts, and also for asking after me.

I am Ok!

The visit with Dad went as I thought it would. Every 10 minutes or so, I kept asking myself. "How do I feel right now?" and "what could I do right now to protect myself from all this"? So it was a good experience of practicing self-care and of taking responsibility for my emotions.

Dad was up and down and all over the place, emotionally. He has to go into hospital for 2 nights, next week, for more investigations and hopefully some treatment. He is devastated that he has to be hospitalized- as for him, hospital is akin to "false imprisonment and torture". I am not kidding- he is very dramatic and morose. You would think that he wanted to call a human rights lawyer, there and then, the way he carried on!!

When I got on the bus to come home (it's a six hour round trip by bus, by the way), I just sank into the seat and fell into a kind of waking sleep, with peaceful, gentle dreams etching in and out of my consciousness. It was like I was asleep but not alseep. All I could think of was "I don't have to go back there for another 2 weeks, at least".

Last night I slept so soundly, knowing I was waking up in my own bed and not in the House of Misery. It's like I am two different people- one of me is the 'real me', who is looking forward to beginning her PhD and who is happily doing experimental stuff in the kitchen with her natural sourdough culture.

The other me is the dutiful daughter, who takes on board the misery for her Dad and who puts herself in his shoes too often- so often that she begins to feel all his pain for him. And I do have to wonder if he doesn't play on that? Does he intuitively know that he has a captive audience with me?

I told my sister, before I left, that I wont be travelling all that way to visit Dad in hospital, since he will only be in there for 2 nights. I said "I think I am going to protect myself this time- last time Dad was in hospital, it nearly bought me to the brink of my sanity." I will just call him on the phone this time.

I wanted to write about a funny thing that I am both very happy about and also slightly cynical over.

My PhD research proposal was accepted without so much as one word about it or question about it's contents! it seems very much like writing the proposal was just a 'formality' that I had to go through and that it didn't matter what I wrote?

Now I have to fill in an official application form and provide a few other things to the uni.... so it sounds like I am in.

I wonder does the uni really need PhD students at the moment? Like, are they just taking on whoever they can get? Not that I'm complaining, mind you... I will be on a very good wicket, as the government/university pays for everything and my PhD will not cost me one cent. Over and above that, they will give me some money if I need to travel to research a few things.... they are quite good about all that.

I suppose I just doubt my own talents. I didn't even think my proposal was that great... I thought I would have to make a few different draughts.

But it's all good. I like reading and writing and I know I am doing the right thing by going for my PhD. I would just be at home studiously reading books all the time, anyway... it's what I love to do.

Hi @Former-Member@Sahara

Your welcome @Former-Member Where on earth did you get I was angry at the world from lol. Nothing could be further from the truth. I wouldn't be helping others if I was angry, and I wouldn't be able to move on. I have been retriggered and distressed of the criticism though of my open and honest expression on here of the losses and grief I experienced and the effects it had on me personally. Nowhere did I stated that "I would rather suffer the loss of a child than estrangement". My goodness - I have suffered both lets please be sensitive here. That did trigger me and was totally misconstrued and out of context. I am sure it was unintentional and there are no hard feelings, but it was distressing to read.

I stated freely and honestly in trust on here, that losing a child by estrangment had a more profound grief impact and was more damaging to me "longer term" than my experience of losing a child to death. Both are deaths. Neither will I see any of my children again. One did not choose this - the other three did. And the latter was definitely worse for me!

You criticised this personal experience by making comparisons of your painful divorce and being estranged this way a d to your sibling (which is not the same as what I went through so not a good comparison) is not worse than the death of a child. For you this is true. That's your experience. But in my circumstances losing "my children" to estrangement and never seeing them again "was worse than when I lost a child to death "for me": - both were deaths as I will never see again my estranged children and although I know my deceased child I also will never see - I know that the love is still there. Can't say the same for my estranged children and for me that's a worse death. Both were painful of course, but the estrangement did more damage to me mentally, emotionally and spiritually. So yes, estrangement "of children" was worse for me than losing someone by death. I can't explain it more than that. Pity I had too.

. I am sorry if this upset you but this was my experience of grief and loss. And by saying "no it isnt worse" to me demeans my pain, my experience, my loss and caused upset. No one who hasn't been through the exact same circumstances can say that or judge in all honesty.

My experience is mine, yours is yours and let's just respect each other's by not tagging others to further criticise and analysis my grief experience. That was wrong. My grief and what I felt is not up for others judgement or analysis "of what is worse". I was hoping for perhaps empathy not scrutiny of my experience as that what this site is about I thoghht . In this case this isnt helping me so I was leave this here. I certainly didn't want this pandora box of mine reopened through comparison. No, it was not helpful. No hard feelings but it was so painful for me to read this and I just ask for understanding and to please let this lye so no further harm is incurred. I certainly won't be sharing my pain again.

Sorry I couldn't help you as that was my only true intention here truly as those have known me on here for years will clarify. I have no other reason to be here otherwise. No harm intended, but I also will shield myself from same. Will flitter around where I can be of support. No need to respond as there is no hard feelings or anger or anything like that - just needed to explain myself properly to clear up misunderstandings - and this is sahara's site and needs to be respected. Wishing you happiness, peace and love.

Hi @Former-Member@Sahara@Former-Member

It's hard to answer all of these because of the twisting and twining of the stories - but I will try

Is it harder to lose a child to physical death or estrangement?

Both are hard - the physical death is permanent and after my son died I would sometimes fall to my knees and cry - the loss was forever and I had tried to hard to help my boy - but he was a tangled mess of conflicting emotions and so unhappy - but

I have lost a whole family to estrangement - and it was instigated by my Toxic Sister - so that had to be worse - I think it was - because of the nastiness and hate that was involved - and all these years later I don't know what happened - only little clues to a huge family mess that is still happening

So my son is in a safe-place and he is precious and very much mine and mine alone - no one talks about him now - my parents are gone now - but the nasty behaviour of TS still continues

But when it comes to nasty family behaviour - we can give them the last word - that is powerful - so powerful - when the moment comes to give them the last word - well - it was a victorious moment for me - and things spun around to being more pleasant - but still

Because of years of estrangement I still find it hard to get in touch with family members I hardly know because of the passage of years when I never saw anyone - and that is hard to overcome - and I am touchy and very easy to brush away - alas - that is how it is for me.

@Former-Member

A parent who becomes hard to live with

When my father died my mother lost the plot - she was in aged-care - she just changed and the family estrangement meant I had no idea what was going on - however I was not going to be snarled at when I visited - and stopped - after telling her I would not come back. I wrote notes for years telling her I would visit if she wanted me to - but I never heard a word - so what should I do?

I felt so bad about this - but I learned after she died that my sister had been reading my notes to my mother - and they were short notes on pretty cards - and TS said not one word to me in all those years - and then tried to push guilt onto me - I wouldn't wear it and still wont

But I do understand - the circumstances are different sure - they always are - but we can only take bits of our own stories and sort out the words and feelings and patch them together - but really - there is no final answer

Dec