Self-love and Self-Hatred

@Owlunar I’ve read your post a few times, you always have plenty of food for thought. I’ve had a few very rough days, so haven’t been in a good space to respond. I guess what I end up posting will indicate whether or not the space has changed.

I don’t think I have an assertive bone in my body. I lamely tried it once, ended in disaster.

But I’ve had a bee in my bonnet about the slogan “ No one deserves a serve.”. I know it’s meant for those treated badly while doing their job, but I’ve looked at it from a different light. I feel we are “ Being served” by people who find a place of power, be they receptionist, cook, dr, nurse etc. There are notices everywhere saying no violence or language. But abuse can be quite. Waiting 2-4 hrs to see a dr while in pain, if we get annoyed, we get labeled, but their lack of respect goes unnoticed. It seems we are being silenced ( served ) in different ways.

What does this have to do with self love self hate, everything i think. Maybe change starts by thinking, then finding courage to say it so someone, then someone else and so on.

@Maggie wrote

[After] waiting 2-4 hrs to see a dr while in pain, if we get annoyed, we get labeled, but their lack of respect goes unnoticed. It seems we are being silenced ( served ) in different ways.

What does this have to do with self love self hate, everything i think. Maybe change starts by thinking, then finding courage to say it so someone, then someone else and so on.

I really like what you wrote here - I decided to read a few posts before I went to sleep and it's not all that comfortable writing in bed but I am so impressed because I have had a lot of practise being assertive and it has everything to do with self-esteem - imo - people who have a poor impression of themselves will perhaps be more inclined to call people difficult, agro, annoyed - whatever - spot on - we irritate people who run small castles easily - I must explain the people with small castles before I post this and hopefully go to sleep

Receptionist, cook, doctor, nurse, butcher, baker, candlestick-maker - can - if they have a small castle - get agro themselves if we rock their boat - they don't like anyone to disturb their little world - it's everything to them - and they quickly get the parent-pose out - it's always handy when someone has a small castle - they have a kit of finger-pointing and looking-down-their-nose and sneering - I have had my share of them and even though I think I am worth the space I am in I still feel it when I am vulnerable

When these people have a big castle they will fall over backwards doing their best for us and it actually has nothing to do with the size of the castle - just the way people see themselves and their lot in life. It's hard to disturb them because they have so many other things that are worth doing in their lives and they tend to care more and life is better because of their big castle

I have a big castle myself - but all of this is an analogy. Small-minded, bossy people are everywhere and seem to congregate in public hospitals - some of those overworked nurses - tired out - I think they have a way of making themselves feel better - at our expense unfortunately

I don't mind people being assertive because I know where I stand with them - people can sometimes get miffed to really having a melt-down if they are not assertive but rather try manipulative behaviours don't like it when we are assertive - my mother was like this and the pain specialist I saw a couple of weeks back got frustrated because she couldn't change my mind - she recovered though and I have what I need for now

I told my GP - his response was that I am assertive and self-informed when it comes to chronic pain - the clinic I attend is for "geriatric" patients and I don't behave like some of them - he is glad I stood up for myself

The reward for being assertive is that i don't have to go back for 8 months - the price - being thought of as difficult

The good thing about not have an assertive bone in your body is that you can always improve on that and it sounds as if you already have - it's a complicated subject and when we start to look into it we start from working out whose problem the problem is. My mother couldn't be upset and didn't like her little castle to be messed up by and self-opinionated adult daughter - that was her problem - not mine but I have to say that being assertive and knowing our rights can be painful when other people reject us and this does happen

Being assertive - like tough love - has consequences but there is so much value in having our self-esteem

This got long - I need to stop

I'm glad you wrote and I think you made some great points

Dec

My counsellor and I use a diary, it’s somwhere I can write my thoughts in between appointments. We swap each week, as she responds to some of what I have written.

This week something she wrote, jumped Off the page.

”Maybe in some ways, it feels safer to stick with self blame and self hate, because it’s so familiar”.

I’ve done a lot of reading around this subject, and it’s certainly not a new realisation, but I’m certainly stuck. I know the roots come from childhood trauma, but I could feel myself being annoyed, that she refused to see me the way I see me. Like I was deceiving her, even though I was being as honest as I could be.

I’m trying to figure out why it feels safer, because it’s so tormenting, stressful and dark.

Is it the “ familiar “ ? What would it feel like to challenge/change ? Is change possible?

I know others here struggle with this. Maybe sharing Is a way of becoming unstuck, or at lease wanting to be “ unstuck”.

Dear @Maggie - I recall my first post on these pages and how it was your gentle words which pulled me out of a dark place and made me feel genuinely cared for and understood. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for that.

As to self blame and self hatred? I don't understand the concepts. How could someone everyone here loves so much harbour such ideas?

First, Maggie, be kind to yourself. Realize that the people whose lives you touch hold you in high regard - because that is what you have earned.

I can only send you my thoughts and yes, change is possible.

@Maggie wrote:

I’m trying to figure out why it feels safer, because it’s so tormenting, stressful and dark.

Is it the “ familiar “ ? What would it feel like to challenge/change ? Is change possible?

---

As someone also with childhood trauma, I was told harshly and with a lot of anger that I was always wrong, whatever I did, no matter how hard I tried to please. You do grow up hating and blaming yourself, that way.

I can say that I don't have that any more. At least, I haven't for the last 12 years or so. How did that change for me? I think a few things helped. One was anger - I had many years of anger at my emotionally abusive father. The anger was healthy, as he broke me completely, to the point of 3 suicide attempts when I was young /a young adult. I also was able to express the anger to my psychologist, who let me work through it.

Another thing was finding stable housing - I can't say enough how important this was, even though I only rent. It allowed me to work through some deep things, including my childhood trauma, over many years with my psychologist. She validated my experiences and hurt and damage. (That's still ongoing.)

Another thing was the hard battle of learning to love myself...a key to this was, strangely enough, my 3 year nervous breakdown 15 years ago, where I was intensely suicidal. It was life-changing. After I came out of that, I figured, well, I'm alive against the odds, I'm really glad to still be alive, so anything I do now is a bonus, and look how well I'm doing just to be alive. So suddenly, all that self hatred originating from my father just hardly seemed to matter much, as I knew how well I was doing just to have a shower, go out, etc. and I loved that about myself. That strong feeling of self acceptance has stood the test of time, so far.

I discovered I was worth something, worth more than my father thought, and that it was his loss that he always thought I was worthless and could never see any good in me. To do this, I needed to separate out from him (as an adult of middle age!) and I also needed to tell him of his lifelong abuse and the damage it has done, which is also lifelong, although I've had a lot of healing through therapy. I told him, and he estranged me, which I didn't want at the time, but which worked out well for me and gave me a few years of space to get stronger in myself. (We are now back in occasional contact.)

As for self blame...that has eased too, to the point where it's hardly ever a problem. To me now, self blame feels like you said, "tormenting, stressful and dark", and after my nervous breakdown, I really, really don't want to go back there to that horrendously dark place. Being validated in therapy helped me to forgive myself, as I realised I was just a child and that the emotional abuse wasn't my fault. Even as an adult, I kept accepting the abuse because I was damaged, still seeking his acceptance, and whatever. So if I'm not blaming myself for the lifetime of abuse, then it makes it easier to accept when I've done something wrong to someone, say sorry, and move on.

It was a bit of a battle for some years, when the self hatred or self blame thoughts sometimes popped up, to reason with myself that I don't need to feel like that any more. And I still have triggers (one is talking on the phone with my father, which doesn't happen very often thankfully). But it's fairly easily dealt with now, and I can forget about those thoughts.

I think also something that helped was learning to feel safe. The stable housing really helped with this, also the distance from my father. Thus the safe feeling became more "familiar" than the self hatred and self blame, if that makes sense.

I don't know if any of this is helpful - I see you (sadly) as far more of an 'expert' in these matters than I could ever be, @Maggie . Please ignore what's not helpful. I've only written as much as I have because it's you asking

@Historylover Deep felt Thankyou. I’m so glad you are here with us. 💚💚💚

@NatureLover It certainly is helpful, and I can assure you, I am no expert.

So much of what you have written, I identify with, mainly, from a mother, but a father also, when he chose to be present.

I too have been sincerely heard, and validated by a gifted and caring counsellor. I will forever be grateful to her for that, and so much more.

My anger comes and goes, as does my voice. Unlearning messages from the past that anger is bad, is ongoing, as is other things.

I’m wondering if my back brain is stuck on high alert, and get short circuited, when my front brain tries to accept something different, and sees it as a threat, rather than a new pathway through. I seem to grasp concepts, but they seem to come like falling snow, and melt once caught.

I think I’m afraid of “ good”. Good gets taken away, feels unsafe and is unfamiliar. It feels like I’m trying to take pics of the present, with the black and white negatives under the surface, always distorting the focus.

But in saying all that, I think I have heard, and I think I’m up for the challenge to change what I can.

You are in inspiration, I hope you can receive that in the spirit it is given. I can’t even think of loving myself.......yet.........but people like you, here and elsewhere, prove it is a possibility.

Thankyou for your response. I’ve already read 3 times. I’m sure many who read it will also be inspired. 💙💙💙

@TheVorticon That struck a cord. Self protection.

I can see that very clearly as something I do almost automatically. Tricky brain stuff.

Thanks for your reply. I had overlooked that. 👍👍

Hi @Maggie @TheVorticon @NatureLover @Historylover

Hi Maggie

I opened a thread on the subject of Self-Love and Self-Hatred last year - and I just had a bit of a read of the first and last pages there and I found a post of yours and a comment that particularly stands out

Maggie wrote

Waiting 2-4 hrs to see a dr while in pain, if we get annoyed, we get labeled, but their lack of respect goes unnoticed. It seems we are being silenced ( served ) in different ways.

What does this have to do with self love self hate, everything i think. Maybe change starts by thinking, then finding courage to say it so someone, then someone else and so on.

And I agree - I agree with so much of what you have said there and here as well - if we are discounted it becomes really hard to feel the strength to maintain our original opinion on the subject and to continue to feel positive about ourselves - it is extremely hard to feel good about ourselves when we are labeled as a hard person to deal with or a difficult patient

And I am sure I am both - but luckily I am okay about being myself in my old age - but how hard this is for people who have be brought up from infancy feeling helpless - lacking choices - not considered worthwhile - etc - where do we gain a better insight into ourselves

I am feeling a little fuzzy today - I was awake for a long time last night hearing gale force winds off the Southern Ocean and maybe I should wait until my head is clear to write a lot - to even read the whole thread we wrote over a year ago - but there is a comment on this thread I would like to mention first

NatureLover wrote

I discovered I was worth something, worth more than my father thought, and that it was his loss that he always thought I was worthless and could never see any good in me. To do this, I needed to separate out from him (as an adult of middle age!) and I also needed to tell him of his lifelong abuse and the damage it has done, which is also lifelong, although I've had a lot of healing through therapy. I told him, and he estranged me, which I didn't want at the time, but which worked out well for me and gave me a few years of space to get stronger in myself. (We are now back in occasional contact.)

Thanks for this comment - it is hard to overcome our mother's voice as it's the one we hear in the womb - and our father is the most important male in our lives as we are growing up - and what they think of us is paramount. I remember my father telling me that I took my children too seriously and they would start to think of themselves as important. To me they were - still are - and I didn't change my attitude toward them.

We start our lives so helpless - so vulnerable - and luckily we don't usually remember much about that - I have learned to respect myself but that was hard - obviously if my father didn't think I was important and my mother - enough said there - she was a very hard person to please and I gave up trying. But somehow during my middle years I didn't share my unpopular choices with the two people who had once had so much power and I was estranged too.

So - as I am still feeling fuzzy - I will end with a comment of History Lover - to be kind to ourselves - if we don't - who will?

In the meantime - I will tag all of you over to my thread on Self-love and Self-Hatred and I haven't read this today and it was written in August last year - I have naturally forgotten - but I invite you to read what people have written there

It is extremely hard to overcome the forces that originally shaped our lives but it can be done - I think we have to accept and let go a lot of the past to do it - and I will certainly write more here - and very glad you have opened the subject again Maggie

Dec