:/

Feeling quite a bit better now that that's passed, thanks @Sophia1 and @Appleblossom

Sophia1 - not sure why you deleted the post.. I saw it but couldn't get my replying-pants on. I wouldn't quite describe it like that, but thanks for the reminder that just sitting outside, watching a river, watching birds, or (even better) patting a cat or dog can be heaps calming.

Appleblossom - yeah I tried to get some breathing mindfulness thing going but it wasn't helping until I focused on something other than breath. I wish I could sing in a way that I liked my voice.

Yeah sometimes it is distraction that is needed.

Singing teachers will often say that you dont actually hear the same sound that you make for others ... as we are hearing and processing our own voices through the bone and other organic material in our heads.

No idea what you sound like. @TheVorticon I always found my own sound weird and uncomfortable so mainly stick with choirs not solos ...

SOme people like to roar others are crooners ... and all the way in between ...

Ok, dredging this thread out of the vaults... and actually tagging but totally no pressure or expectation about responding @Faith-and-Hope @Teej @CheerBear

Main problems:

1) Work, I'm on a temporary project which involves a lot of politicking and conversations. I have social anxiety and these are really tricky for me to feel like I'm doing any good with. I have to decide whether to stay on with the project, and it will be in a role that has the same level (if not more) of talking stuff. Some of my team members think I'm doing well at this, which doesn't reflect how I feel about it.

I've never let social anxiety completely hold me back from a job opportunity before, but this one is a much harder ask. I need to sort my crap out to make the best of the opportunity rather than hiding from the problem. But if I decide to pay to go to a psychologist then they need to have better value to offer than a book or a printout of a stupid breathing exercise. I don't trust them to be helpful. I don't even understand what they're supposed to do that will help, other than the exact same thing that can be seen from a CBT book etc.

2) I was doing some research into gender identity stuff, and it was suggested that perhaps in my case it is related to internalised sexism instead of identity. After the feelings of invalidation and 'yuck' subsided, I've decided I want a way to distinguish between the two. A methodology. A set of questions. Something other than "think about it" or "look into it" - think about or look into what, specifically?! I don't want generic reading material or community. I want specific, targeted, detailed information. Which at this point seems like something that no one has the ability to offer up.

3) I'm disproportionately terrified of presenting properly the way that I want to. Growing up, my clothing choices were always "wrong" and it's left me petrified of being judged for what I wear or how my hair looks. My mum is staying with me at the moment and she was always the first to comment. She did so again just a week ago, because I tried to wear something in a way that doesn't fit expectations yet made me feel happier.

Because this stuff is at the forefront of my mind, I was researching something (even though she was home, I can't just put my life on hold for someone who's temporarily staying with me) and she would've seen it while she was here. I don't know precisely what she saw, but her comments reflect that she saw something she didn't like and didn't understand the context. "You don't have to change yourself for someone else. Don't change yourself." (or similar)

Too late. I've already changed myself into a blank, nothing, default. Because I was policed over being the person I really was.

It's just too hard sometimes.

Hi @TheVorticon,

im supposed to be asleep but obviously not. I’m writing this not with my thinking cap on much but wanted to respond as I often am not on the forum much on the weekends.

The work one sounds tricky. I don’t have any advice but maybe just a suggestion which may or may not be helpful. Rather than seeing a psychologist I’m wondering if you could do a course in communicating or public speaking or something. My son is really scared of presenting his final uni project. He has social anxiety too although is much better these days. Anyway he is doing a public speaking course to gain confidence.

part 2 I looked up. It feels to me like you are needing to draw things out and process them and would like help to do so. For this one I would recommend a psychologist/social worker to help you work out what it is you need to understand and process. I know you’d have to find someone that has a sound understanding and empathy of the things you need to talk about. Sometimes I’ve just said to someone that I need help getting the things out of my brain and understand them and then ways to process them or deal with it. Someone may be able to help you work out the questions you need answered.

3. A’s someone who worries about what they wear and what messages I’m sending I have a tiny inkling into what you are talking about although I understand the differences too. This sucks but with age comes a level of confidence to be more individual with clothing/styles/hair etc. I try not to worry about it so much any more but it does still affect me sometimes. My only advice would be to gradually find what is 'you' and what makes you feel comfortable and authentic. I came from a house where I’ve disappointed my mother no end in not being girly and being a bit of a tomboy. My childhood was spent in very pretty dresses. My adulthood in jeans. My mother still comments on my clothes often.

Im not sure if any of this helps. I’m totally fine if you need to pick up something I’ve missed or got wrong too. All the best 🤗💜

Hi @TheVorticon @Teej .... good morning 👋

I can hear how hard it is @TheVorticon. I know from what I am / have experienced in my own situation how hard it can be to grow up in an environment that is perfectionist and controlling, not that my parents were, but my in-laws definitely are.

The first thing to understand is that “perfectionism” is not what it sounds like ..... perfection doesn’t exist ..... high levels of achievement / polish / detail / knowledge do, but it is what drives the pursuit of these things that makes all the difference, and they are not necessarily attractive to everyone. A perfectionist nature is driven by fear .... fear of not being good enough, fear of not gaining enough, fear of missing out, fear of being judged and falling short of a bar that has been set very high .....

The thing to recognise is that it is driven by fear, and if that is the experience you have had from your parents it can lead to feeling somewhat frozen, unable to make decisions easily, unsure about how high to set the bar for yourself, feeling insecure about achievement and purpose .... Another response can be to become a fear-driven perfectionist yourself, but the good news is that these things can be overcome.

So what is the opposite of fear ? Joy. High achievers who are not driven by fear are “driven” .... or probably more accurately, responding to some form of joy. I say “some form”, because, like most things, I think joy is on a spectrum, or sliding scale. What is joy to you ? Is it an acknowledgement that something is comfortable ? Is it a sense that something feels okay, or good, or even great ? Is it a spark of happiness maybe ? Or is it dance-in-the-kitchen-with-yay🎉-and-fist-pumps-in-the-air ? Ironically, I was having this exact same conversation with one of my kidults last night.

As @Teej has said, you can gradually find what is meaningful or comfortable for you, and it sounds like you have started that process (and good for you that you are not allowing a temporary visitor to interfere with it).

I agree that some sort of public speaking course can give you tools and experience to boost self confidence and reduce the jitters.

Without making any decisions yet, maybe look up some psychologists. Most will list their areas of experience and interest, such as perfectionism, gender issues, life changes, relationship issues, parenting issues, eating disorders, etc .... so you can sort of go shopping for the support you feel you need.

I hope this helps .....

P.S. .... @TheVorticon @Teej

There have been times when I didnt know how I wanted to dress myself. I literally Googled “What to wear as a stay-at-home-Mum ?” and “what do I do with my hair?” and “What to wear to a business dinner”.

My kids roll their eyes and giggle at me .... but hey .... it works for me 😊

Try to have fun with ut. Humour is a great equaliser.

Thanks for the suggestions @Teej and @Faith-and-Hope

For the public speaking/comms course, I think we might have our wires crossed a bit. To me, public speaking nervousness is different and kind of separate to social anxiety. Even though I do get nervous about public speaking, if I'm prepared then I can kinda pull it off. But no amount of public speaking practice is going to help me deal with being nervous about going to the counter at Macca's, or making small talk on the bus, or emailing someone after being introduced to them via email to set a first meeting with them where we're supposed to discuss xyz in very undefined terms with no concrete outcomes to meet other than 'sharing ideas'.

Public speaking is defined. You get up, you're the one in 100% control. You control the content, you control your mind, and if you're good enough you control the audience. Question time is harder, but you can still prepare for questions and you can choose to answer a different question than was asked, or just admit that you need some time to get back to them with an answer that does justice to the question.

Small talk is way undefined. My mind goes and stays blank. Trying to pull a thought or a topic or a word out of a void of gaping nothingness. I would rather give a presentation to 500 people than spend 3 hours in a car alone with a colleague or friend.

The job would be a mixture of public speaking and actual conversations. It's the actual conversations that leave me questioning my competence.

IDK about the other 2 things.

---

@TheVorticon wrote:

Thanks for the suggestions @Teej and @Faith-and-Hope

For the public speaking/comms course, I think we might have our wires crossed a bit. To me, public speaking nervousness is different and kind of separate to social anxiety. Even though I do get nervous about public speaking, if I'm prepared then I can kinda pull it off. But no amount of public speaking practice is going to help me deal with being nervous about going to the counter at Macca's, or making small talk on the bus, or emailing someone after being introduced to them via email to set a first meeting with them where we're supposed to discuss xyz in very undefined terms with no concrete outcomes to meet other than 'sharing ideas'.

Public speaking is defined. You get up, you're the one in 100% control. You control the content, you control your mind, and if you're good enough you control the audience. Question time is harder, but you can still prepare for questions and you can choose to answer a different question than was asked, or just admit that you need some time to get back to them with an answer that does justice to the question.

Small talk is way undefined. My mind goes and stays blank. Trying to pull a thought or a topic or a word out of a void of gaping nothingness. I would rather give a presentation to 500 people than spend 3 hours in a car alone with a colleague or friend.

The job would be a mixture of public speaking and actual conversations. It's the actual conversations that leave me questioning my competence.

IDK about the other 2 things.

---

hello @TheVorticon

huge apologies about the previous post.....I am absolutely dreadful with technology..

well let me say this...if I was your mum I would love you to bits no matter what...yes it might be a shock...but my goodness all of the unexpected for me it is unconditional..

I will say to you that yes you are struggling with your sexual identity..

I and many more have struggled with our depression and other mind struggles in our era...we are still here some of us.

It is very hard being different...I am still different to this day within my family within my world...as I am learning to deal with it myself...that is the most difficult part..

you are in a world of acknowledgement from some at least of difference.....

so be strong and stand up for who you are...be that for all of us who were not able to ....

a big ask I know....I also understand if too hard...just want to give you an acknowledgement that you matter as a person...

I love the fact that you have told us who you are the vorticon...please let the world know...you have every right to do so...

I am here backing you all the way,,,, just keep on tagging me...

Hi @TheVorticon .....

This may seem unrelated at first, but please hear me out. I am talking about me at first, to be able to give you an example.

When I first married, just before we married, my MIL began to “change” ..... she was using passive-aggressive emotional blackmail to manipulate the wedding plans to how she wanted them, and not knowing what to do with this, how to deal, why she would do that, etc, our wedding plans and the results became scrambled. After we married it became much worse, with open affronts given with a smile on the face that left me reeling ..... what to do ? Tackling her head-on would cause an implosion of my marriage because these behaviours were kept strictly out of view of my husband.

What to do ??

I learned something that would stay with me for life. I began to recognise “traps” .... repeated circumstances and behaviours that left me feeling assaulted, time and again ..... so I turned them over and over in my mind for a while and began to role-play how I would like to respond. Some of those responses would have been a self-sabotage, so I excluded those, and worked out a system of “anti-traps” .... ways of eluding the traps, or preventing them from happening, or walking out of them, or even turning them back onto her.

Without the same negative reason behind them, perhaps you can consider the feelings of social anxiety as a snare that you can extricate yourself from by practicing (rehearsing) responses ahead of time and using them in the same way you might use palm cards for a speech.

Would the job involve entertaining clients or bosses ? If you’re travelling in a car with work associates that you’re not responsible for entertaining, it’s quite acceptable to say, for instance, “Do you mind if we listen to the radio while we are driving ? I prefer not to chat so I can concentrate on my driving.” If you’re responsible for entertaining other who are in your company, you can script that to some degree too, planning things to pint out along the way, and getting them to talk about themselves b6 ask8ng questions that involved lengthy answers.

Taking that out of the setting of a car, can you see that it is possible to plan and script to manage social anxiety by following a plan or pattern when other people are not ? There are self-help books available to teach you more of these skills.

I think you will gain a sense of control and a lessening of your discomfort this way, and after using particular “scripts” for a while, they would become familiar tracks for you that you can learn to tweak for different settings.