TW: The 'real' me inside - I come with an SI warning

Thanks for understanding @MissGremlin

" I was wondering... is it not distressing because you no longer feel the emotional desire along with the SI? Or why is it no longer distressing to have those feelings? 🤔. (For me, the disconnection between "feelings" and "actions" is itself the cause for feeling distress, even though I may be doing exactly what CBT would say to do!)"

I think a lot of the emotional distress came with "Why am I continuing to have these thoughts if m y life is fine?" So once it was normalised for my condition, a learnt accept that I would live with these thoughts, and therefore, I no longer felt emotionally distressed at having these thoughts.

@AlwaysMyself

Not sure if the above makes any sense. Hope you're okay. Please reach out to someone if you feel you need to talk to someone 1:1.

Sorry, @tyme . It's always that fine line between being able to talk about what's really going on, the things that are helpful even when they may not be "traditional" /typical, and the benefits/disbenefits of sharing these things. I've found a lot of comfort in knowing that there are a number of other people who have/do had similar chronic thoughts (even if we are a small minority of presentations), and especially when 'traditional' therapy approaches haven't been able to alleviate/improve things - or in some cases make it worse. Understanding/hearing other approaches that might help with these atypical-presentations has been helpful, however because many of these topics are difficult to discuss there are very few places it is possible to get support that doesn't try to fit you into the typical mould.

I realise that it can be really difficult for people to understand that these thoughts can co-exist and even improve 'safety', or increase the ability to engage better with treatment and 'being hopeful'. For me, unlearning some of the traditional psychology that i have been taught over two decades has actually been beneficial in helping me not be as distressed and to be able to seek help/support. ...the thing is... it doesn't matter how much reading of self-help or psychology-support type of things I've done... the things that have really helped shift something noticably haven't come from there. They've come from shared-experience discussions, from people who have had to try alternative methods because the "normal" ones don't help. I can't help but wonder how many other people out there may also never know/realise that some things they have been taught are increasing their distress even though it's meant to help reduce it?

I do make especially sure to clarify that I am safe, that my counsellor and other carers/providers/supports are also aware - and, in this case, that they are not concerned for my safety (as an additional objective assurance).

I give as many warnings as I can if something might be distressing to some people, and always ask people to not read if it might be triggering for them, and reassure that it is OK to not read.

I can (or yourself/psw/mod) remove the entire content-box if that is preferable.

If I can't talk about how I really feel/think, then so be it. I will have to come up with a way to say that I can't discuss it, but also somehow give assurance that I am also safe. To me, when I read that in a post, it's a clear message to me that their thoughts are not safe and they probably most need to be able to talk about it with someone who won't judge them and won't over-react. And sadly crisis lines don't have a good reputation for dealing with chronic SI unless it is triggered by a specific event. When I've reached out to them, it's 50/50 whether I feel better or worse afterwards -- because many of them don't understand my type of depression or SI. I can spend half the time explaining/repeating that there was no triggering event for the thoughts and that I can't imagine what "better" looks like because I don't have any memory/concept of it yet - it's just blind faith that it exists.

The real sticker for me is that I have tried so many ways to hopefully feel better. I have asked for and sought help, and it hasn't helped beyond the initial 'stabilisation' and distress tolerance 20 years ago. This is why PAT the only treatment (as opposed to lifestyle modification, such as non-working) that I have available to try, that hasn't already, and won't risk decreasing quality of life (i.e. ECT).

What do you do when there are no additional options? (genuine question!)

Then the only choices I see are "wait until some new treatment is discovered in the future" or "wait/pray/hope for a miracle change". To me, neither of those are encouraging or hope-inspiring - even if they may qualify as "recovery-oriented".

I reiterate that I am safe. That today's has been a good, even mood day. One of my 'lighter' days. I realise it is "weird" and "untraditional", but for me all the things I mentioned were "highlights" as a positive experience in my ability to cope.

Heya @AlwaysMyself great to connect on coffee chats before earlier, my batteries aren’t powering up properly but wanted to stop by to check in and say a quick hello again 😊

I haven’t been through my notifications yet either, do plan on catching up as soon as I can, take care 🐸

Also just a bit random but I had a random thought earlier today, have you listened to 8D music? Just on the dopamine trail if you wonder where my mind had been linking this 😊

Also I know this may have mixed feelings and responses to this next bit, so bare with me, I am just curious though if S is taken off the table as an option, what would this mean? I wonder if it being on the table can potentially hold you back in a way. I know this will illicit some strong stuff but what I am interested in is if the depression lenses manage to dissipate or if S is off the table could this also help? I just get curious about these questions. It will be interesting if you have a good part in your day whether you could even feel differently about these questions and what it could bring up. Definitely nothing you have to answer to and I know when unwell how all those answers can be answered, how incredibly painful it can be to essentially live- I truely acknowledge all of that, but I am just curious about this looking at it from a different angle 🙏 Also for another random thought, I remember chatting briefly re emdr, its benefits are not just for all trauma stuff but can be for future stuff too, I wondered what your thoughts are about this. I find it (here comes our word lol) so ‘interesting’ but I haven’t done enough reading about that stuff yet 😊 Chat tomorrow my friend, sleep well 😊

@Chasingsunsets that's a fair question. it's been "off the table" for me for 25 years. it's still been with my thoughts all this time, and the want of it. I have instead tried to focus on managing/reducing the depression, decreasing stressors/triggers, and "one foot in front of the other". the past 15 years of this time i could be asked on any day what my preference would be, and it would still have always been the same. a "good" day for me is a day when I am not actively thinking about it and when i don't have physical pain or excessive fatigue and my mood is neutral/bland - perhaps with a few things that spark some curiosity or novelty momentarily (which by its inherent nature is short-lived). this is the "problem" that has me stuck between a rock and a hard place if the PAT doesn't work.

EMDR for future things?
I am interested to hear more what you mean by that. but I know you need to sleep! so please do reserve this until after you are rested - because your sleep is important!

Hopefully I can get to sleep at some stage.

I decided to give LL chat a try, since I am feeling more strongly the "don't fit the medical expectations/model" from earlier. They listened, but it still felt very scripted. Nothing helpful. it almost feels like i am talking to an AI chatbot, even though I know I am not. its just the same-old traditional focus and assumptions that "heightened emotion" must be around these feelings, rather than a calm and weary soul. But i guess there's not much harm in having reach out; they tried their best i'm sure; even though I still feel that the systems aren't made to support people with my way of thinking or needs. Peer support workers are a lot better than crisis lines, but i don't know any that operate when-needed overnight (i.e. not a "call back within 48 hours" version of "24/7 leave us a message").

Square peg in a round hole.

@AlwaysMyself Hello lovely how are you? I’m so sorry I’ve been unwell and overwhelmed by everything. Thank you for still tagging me it made me feel wanted and cared for.

Exploring trauma with your counsellor soubds like a good idea. Unpacking trauma even without PTSD can help and might open up things you don’t realise on a conscious level are there. I’m also really glad things with your counsellor are working well. That is a huge benefit to recovery.

I find it hard to discuss SI and it’s not something I’ve had all my life. I find it very hard to talk about it. It’s not something I’m used to. I’m safe though I am just talking generally here. What I do want to say is that working on your recovery and feeling better and finding life worthwhile is what I really want to see happen. This will take time and I know that you are strong enough with all your supporys and us here to feel better about existing. You are truly so amazing and I do genuinely consider you a friend. I personally am so grateful you are here in this world and I have been able to meet you.

Your paint by numbers was an excellent task to do over coffee/drinks with friends. It’s not rude especially as others read the paper or play a game. Not everyone can focus just on conversation and it can cause stress if forced to.

What do you have on this weekend? I’m glad you’ve made progress in your office area!

I’ve been unwell. I need to be in forums a bit more to have that connection and ability to be amongst peers. I’m home alone and had my biopsy yesterday. It’s in a mole. I’m hoping to get good news by way of results.

Thank you @Cuddlebear . I suspected your absence may have been due to being unwell (physically or mentally, or both). I hope the biopsy results come back benign - would love you to let me know either way though.

Just on my way back from the hospital to my car, and then i will join my drop-in-coffee friends for a distraction for a few hours before returning home.

Talk more later.

Afternoon @AlwaysMyself 😊, how’s your day been so far?

Maybe ‘off the table’ seemed a bit strong here, that definitely wasn’t my intention, sorry about that. This may be a better way to explain what I mean perhaps, I think for me personally I often wonder if the thoughts weren’t in my brain and my brain didn’t default to these thoughts, what would this mean for me? How would I feel, what could come from it, could it create room for other thoughts ie (life progression and how)? I still don’t feel like I have been about to get across what I want to say well so sorry about that 😌, I know this is a pretty weighted subject which has a lot of emotion and feeling so definitely trying to explain what I mean softly and gently with absolutely no judgement just curiosity and wonder. At the end of the day I often think SI isn’t a natural thought for humans, survival is, so how has our brain led us to having these thoughts which is the opposite to survival? What is it that really has overridden the natural instinct and as you have said before how do we fix this rewiring. These questions I often wonder and get curious about.

I am hearing how things may have progressed to having a lot more weight on PAT, I am wondering if there would be any room to share the eggs to a couple more baskets, to keep a bit of a balance... I have briefly read about PAT, working on the serotonin pathways, with some indirect effect to dopamine release however I am wondering if you have heard or seen treatments for other pathways, like dopamine, GABA, norepinephrine etc I know you like studies and trials so would be interested in hearing if you have come across anything else. As I have covered before all this stuff really interests me and I could talk about it until the cows came home 😊

I use to wonder if I am feeling a certain way if it was coming from within what mood chemical am I lacking, how could I improve this, 🤔. Definitely been down some rabbit holes hehe. All very cool to read about though. Wish I was smarter to retain it all and link it all etc!

Oh yeah emdr for future stuff, it was a very quick off the cuff one liner that my psych said to me the other day. It was something I remembered as it made me curious and it was new to what I had been reading about emdr. I am still in the early and new stages of all this but did come across on Google post your question on further elaboration of what I mentioned 😊. This is all new to me and only sharing what I have read no personal experience or knowledge in the area “yet”🤔😊. ‘emdr 2.0’ mentioning - “Conditions Addressed Beyond Trauma, While developed for trauma, the principles of EMDR are now used for various non-trauma-related issues that function like "blocks" on mental well-being: Anxiety disorders, phobias, and panic attacks, Depression, Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD), Grief and loss, Performance anxiety (e.g., in sports or academics),Chronic pain and somatoform disorders, Enhancing self-esteem and general personal growth.” So this has been pretty interesting for me to hear about and want to definitely do more reading on this stuff. I wonder if any of the peer works here are familiar or interested with emdr, I know auntglow might be 😊, perhaps she might been keen to jump into this discussion too 😊.

Sorry to hear about your LL experience last night, I definitely feel it can matter who is on the other line, I have had some really good chats in the past and then have experienced some not so helpful chats aswell. It would be awesome if peer workers worked overnight or our current health practitioners, I remember having this discussions about how the weekend can be hard for some and how good it would be if our HP could be available on the weekends. But all good that’s where the other support services have their roles. I hope you got some sleep last night?
what have you been up to today?

and omg I have gone through the highlights thread just before, your paint by numbers is amazing how’s it going? Got another thing to add to that but will respond in the other thread 😊

so good chatting as always appreciate how in depth our chats can go, I love learning and discovering 😊

Hey @AlwaysMyself , I absolutely hear you and can relate to what you are saying. Thank you for taking the time to share.

I won't go into too much, but when you mentioned about connecting with others, this was the part that struck me most. As part of my recovery, I connected with a lot of people with LIVED/living experience whom I could share the challenges I was having and be heard. This support led me to finding other supports.

I wonder if there are avenues in your area where you can connect with other peers. You're right in saying that some things cannot be shared on a public facing forums - so I wonder if there are other avenues of support you can gain?

Just a thought.

Once again, thank you for sharing.