autistic adults and the police

Thanks for the information Peas. Your son has such a heady cocktail of health conditions @Bunniekins , and I am not surprised that you attribute his illness to an escalation of your own stress levels to such a degree where it was the catalyst of your own MI. My parents MI's have had a profound affect on my own health.

It would have been very traumatic, and just because you didn't develop PTSD it doesn't mean that stress wasn't central to creating a tipping point where your body just caved in and kind of exploded. I remember some years ago watching that show on the ABC set in the ER of Liverpool Hospital mental health ward....and I remember some presentations of trauma in that series didn't result in PTSD but did result in Bi-polar or other illnesses.

I think we all have the same basic vulnerability no matter what MI you have and then its a little bit like the Choose Your Own Adventure stories kids read in the 80s, it could swing either way when you take into account other variables.

I hope that the education the Police receive is well informed.

Corny

@Corny Hey Corny good to see you. Yes you are totally right with what you say (I love the way you write always puts a little smile on my face :). ' the Choose Your Own Adventure stories kids read in the 80s' lolz). I saw the inverview of one of the mum's involved and she was very careful of her language .... there have been some disaster stories in the past now all we need is the police to have real life training of mental illness and how to respond. Instead of the shoot now and ask questions later.

There have been some horrendous stories @Bunniekins and there seems to be 2 extremes when it comes to police reactions to these situations. I don't know if you know much of my bio but my mother has suffered from schizophrenia since her teens and she is in her 70s now, she was largely unmedicated and untreated for most of my childhood. And my father was on the NPD spectrum somewhere with anxiety and depression also (died by suicide almost 10 years ago now), but on top of that was very extremely abusive.

So when I was little I had a pretty good vantage point to observe the difference in how they were both perceived by society, medical professionals and how they were treated. It was my father that posed the greatest risk and threat to our lives and safety but my mother was treated appallingly because of the stigma of schizophrenia. His condition fell outside the definition of what most people consider to be 'unwell', and then horrific tragedies like Hannah Clarke and her 3 children occur....

Admittedly, I don't know much about ASD's myself, how the condition changes and impacts behaviour and what the best method of communication is. There seems to be a big focus on children, but I don't read much about adults with ASD. Over-all I think that your son would get more sympathy in the community if he just told people that he has autism, but as soon as his schizophrenia is mentioned their attitudes would shift dramatically.....

Can I ask a dumb question, is autism a mental illness? I didn't think that it was considered a mental illness in Australia but in some USA media reports on crimes I have noticed they refer to it as a mental illness.

Corny

@Corny No I didnt know much about your bio .... I am so sorry that you have had such a traumatic childhood. Life can be so cruel and people unforgiving of other's illnesses. I am so sorry to hear about your mother. My dad was verbably and physically abusive coloured my view on men for life I think .... he was quite scarey at times :(.

ASD can be a violent disorder particularly in teenagehood. There is the usual hormonal problems happening and a lack of being able to express themselves leads to violent behaviour at times. Adults tend to be forgotten about ..... unless one can contribute to society, society really doesnt want to know and that is the problem so many autistic people find it hard to fit in due to anxiety etc. Leads to lonelyness and depression.

ASD is not a mental illnes but a disorder. Although mental illness can go along with the diagnosis like my son2.

Lots of brain conditions can result in violence @Bunniekins , obviously mental illness is one of them, sounds like autism can, I am utterly convinced that my father had some sort of disorder that was a developmental disorder, entire parts of his social brain were missing while other parts were in over drive. Patients with Parkinson's disease can become violent as the disease progresses (my grandmother had it, and she did) and also if you have any family or friends that work in aged care there is a lot of violence in nursing homes that is never reported because it doesn't have the same sensationalism that mental illness does, aged violence is met with more sadness and sympathy than a young person that is mentally ill.

And then there is the huge percentage, the majority in fact, of violent acts perpetrated by people with no diagnosis and no history of MI.....what are they?......is every one that is violent, also mentally ill? where are the lines drawn?......If its repetitive, obviously there is something seriously wrong but I don't think a lot of people see it that way, they tend to use phrases such as "evil". to describe acts like that. And I guess because a lot of them are premeditated I can understand why they think that. I think there is definitely gender biases in the community, if a women is violent she will most likely be labelled mentally ill compared to a man who they will lock up. Trust me, there are heaps of violent, aggressive and volatile women in the lesbian community, it is absolutely fanciful to think otherwise, and I am not a person with hundreds of friends, and it feels like every 4th or 5th lesbian relationship I hear people talk about, there is DV, and sometimes that is mutual, from both sides, they are equally obsessive

One thing I know for sure is that you are one of the sanest people out there Peas!!!.

You have no delusions that MI can sometimes result in violence and you don't bury your head in the sand about it and pretend that it does not. I have read a little research on it, when looking into my past and reading up on the correlation between NPD and violence when reflecting on my father, and the stats I read are that generally it is somewhere between %3-%4 of violent crimes are committed by people with MI, so that leaves over %90 committed by sane people......Hmmmm......all comes back to how we define it....Rowan Baxter probably would have been described as "a broken man", I wouldn't be surprised if he was counselled on Life Line or Beyond Blue in the days and weeks prior....while law enforcement and people in the community remain blinkered and narrow in what potentially violent people look like.....it will just keep happening. So many of his behaviours were very obvious to people with DV childhoods.

I think that the home environment that you were raised in would have had a profound effect on your relationship with men, but also on the development of your brain and nervous system, I know it has mine and its a daily struggle to live with the consequences of that.

@Corny lol Corny I am only sane because of my medication without it I am totally off the air crazy chickpea!! The thing is without my meds I am one of the aggressive ones who hurts herself and could hurt others .... which is why I take my meds religiously. Would I do a Rowan Baxter no way. I love my kidults. There was so much pain in the route he chose for his beloved children .... why would he want to cause them so much pain in death .... When I was completely manic I felt like I was possessed at times (the parts which I remember other parts are like a dream still)., Was he plain evil, possessed or bat shit crazy? Still doesnt answer why would he want to cause his children such an awful death?

Can you tell me more about your fathers diagnosis .... only if you feel comfortable doing so. I have promised never to send son2 to a group home they sound horrendous. All the 'people in the know' tell you differently but if you dig a bit deeper you hear of instances which happen and you re like OMG No way for my son or daughter. Institutionalization to me anyway sounds a nightmare situation best avoided. Euthanasia for me is far more preferable.

From what I have read @Bunniekins , those closest to Hannah Clarke, don't think that Rowan Baxter had the children in mind at all, that it was all about his inability to get over the breakdown of the relationship and he could not accept that it was over. He monitored what she wore, she wasn't allowed to wear revealing clothing and the situation comes across as similar personality traits as my father.

In terms of what my father's diagnosis was @Bunniekins he was treated for depression and anxiety, but to my knowledge his personality traits and style was never officially diagnosed as NPD. He was in hospital on and off for 9 months when I was in year 11 & 12, and then when he got home my mother was admitted to the same mental health hopsital (I was taken there as a baby when I was born and separated from my mother, I assume for my own safety). During one of these admissions we did have a psychiatrist throw his arms up and say, "I cannot help or treat this man"! So they sent him home to live with us.

I get the impression that health professionals don't often give that diagnosis (NPD) out. They may privately believe it, see all the signs but it only seems to be given in a forensic psychiatry setting.

The condition remains untreated and undiagnosed in most cases and doctors seem to believe that it is an intractable condition, so they don't go near it unless in the legal setting when a crime has been committed.

But really Pea, MI aside, and diagnosis aside, he was an absolute a-hole. A capital A, a-hole. You can have all the self focused and superiority traits of NPD and not be violent, aggressive, manipulative and controlling.... how we treat a-hole-ism....I do not know. But I do know that more could be done for women and men like Hannah and her children because there are a lot of common threads in these situations.

I think one of the really difficult things is that within the situation there are so many clashing social issues that are trying to be changed. In my fathers example, if you were a social worker in our community and you met someone with SH and suicidal ideation would you accuse them of DV right there on the spot? Hmmmm probably not. Would you throw resources at him, doctors, nurses, social welfare, up the GP visits and give him more opportunities to groom health professionals....you probably would. The social problems of trying to reduce mental illness and suicide rates can clash with DV...most people assume that a scenario like ours isn't possible, and that it would be distasteful and unprofessional to make enquiries about DV when someone is so unwell, SH'ing and fragile.......we never stood a chance.

My father had a public face and a private face and his behaviour and thought processes were filled with lots of contradictions but he was never described as suffering from delusions. Even though he was capable of consciously juggling these two sides that didn't raise red flags for many people or if it did, they turned the other way. He was absolutely terrified of death and dying and yet was utterly obsessed with suicide. He stole personal histories and made up his biography from books, friends lives or people that he met who had a past more tragic and more horrendous than his, and told the most incredible lies.

You are faced with some really difficult decisions and problems that other people don't have to even consider with your children's disabilities. My sibs have friends with children with ASD, some very severe, non verbal and do need some future housing arrangements because they themselves will not live forever......I really don't know what on earth the answer is......is your ex contributing to their care? Could they all live together and the property drawn up under a disability trust so any prospective lovers or partners can't take it?

Corny

@Corny My mother used to say my dad was a 'street angel home devil'. He would appear fun and life of the party to everyone outside his home but behind closed doors he was a nightmare at times. Thing is my dad wasnt always awful so as a child it was hard sometimes he would be great and other times just plain awful .... as you said so well "But really Pea, MI aside, and diagnosis aside, he was an absolute a-hole." that was my dad too.

Oh Corny idk what to do about son2 tbh. It makes me very depressed thinking about it. He is not disabled enough to be in a care facility imho but not able enough to be in private housing ..... I would love him to have a partner and more able bodied friends but he is so autistic it makes life so hard.

Anyway enough about me and my problems .... can I ask what your mi is if you dont mind that is I dont want to pry. You are obviously are a smart chookie do you study?

@Bunniekins I am actually a Rhodes scholar and a......wait for it Pea Pea...don't feel bad for being judgey of that doctor's special powers, I didn't want to make you feel bad.....I am a Dermatologist!

Look Peas I may be a Dermatologist but clearly from your experience I am not as skilled as some Can't say that I can pick psychotic illnesses from the look of the gorgeous, radiant complexion you are donning without a microscope like your magician Dermo-doctor could, and she was also able to adjust your medications! but it's not so hard to pick other life style choices shall we say, some cheap and legal, some very very expensive and not so legal unless you live on the Inca Trail and have a little hobby farm.....

Honestly Peas, with regards to your son....I know you don't want to hear this......but I would aim for as much independence as possible, even if it takes ten years to implement that......It took my sibs and I, 4 years to get my disabled mother out of regional Australia after my father died and back to Sydney where she was born and raised. And then looking back it took a good 3 years to set her up down here and to make her comfortable with the help and services in Sydney. It's a very slow, and incredible stressful process that takes years off your life. What blew us away was the difference between the amount of help that is offered to a person if you are under 65, as opposed to when you are technically 'aged'. She gets so much more support now that she gets an aged care package.

Another thing that I would do, is keep your children in Sydney. There are no services in regional NSW, and even if they have to live in a studio or one bedroom unit their quality of life would be so much better here and there are more choices for doctors and support workers. You are limited in regional towns and have to suck it up and just go with what is offered to you.

I would investigate Disability Trusts or some sort of Trust with the ATO and maybe you can get free legal advice via your DSP and NDIS......One thing is for certain if you don't want him in a group home he has to have secure housing. Could he live by himself and have support workers 3/4 times a week visit him, or would he deteriorate completely with a set up like that. I think that your ex husband also has to contribute, they are his biological children, and not from a previous marriage or relationship. He has responsibilities.

Wear your suncream Peas and avoid the harsh UV's between the hours of 10 and 2.

@Corny Now Corny I need a good dermatologist lol seriously from years of early baking in the sun at the beach. These days I am a good pea and stay out of the sun and wear sunscreen every day :). Imagine you being a dermatologist well there you go 🙂

Ex is pretty good but I think he is losing it mentally. Have noticed a decline. His father had dementia......He cannot cope with much never has and never will. Is a dreamer. Anyways I have a choice I will be inheriting part of a property in a few years and am seriously thinking of buying some small property myself and leaving it all to son2. I have a son1 but he is going well has a girl friend, house and job overseas so wont be back to help son2. Have daughter who could do with some help ..... will have to think about that one. I live on the outskirts of Sydney. I feel I have to look after the most needy out of the three which is son2. Always has been been and always will be. Just the way it is.

Thanks for the heads up re help close to sydney as compared to being in the country. I always wanted to leave the big smoke but wondered about that.