Weird Moral Dilemma....

Hi @Sahara, personally I think we are entitled to keep anything to ourselves that we wish for whatever reason. Private spaces in ourselves seem very important to me. I tend to be very open about lots of things even to the point of 'oversharing' but I see that as a weakness in character in myself really. It's a different situation in my view when we are in therapeutic relationships with our counsellors or perhaps support groups. There, as much honesty as possible is usually the best policy. But in the wider world I think complete openness with people can be sometimes damaging to them and us. You and others may disagree, we all have different takes on things. Hope this helps or is a useful different take on your situation. Best to you on whatever you decide.

Hi @Sahara!

Firstly... hi! [waves cheerily]

Secondly... Huggles... 🙂

Thirdly... huge congrats on the house. I love that early phase, when you and the house are still trying to get to know each other, settling into each other. You know that feeling, yeah? It's as you're in the process of turning a house into a home...

I love that... we are house hunting at the moment, but that story for another time perhaps...

Just now you, as a thoughtful, intelligent (including emotionally intelligent), intricate warm human being, are faced with an interesting moral dilemma...

If I may offer my perspective? I hope you don't mind...

Straight out and out, according to my own personal values and codes of ethics, my morality, my blindfolded inner self holding a set of scales and weighing it up...

I see no moral harm coming from the (white lie of omission). There is no vindictiveness, there is no ill intent. You have thought things through very carefully, and you obviously know this interesting friend of yours quite well...

If it were me, I'd do the same. I would not cause the trouble and grating picking that you would more than likely get from your friend. Not just yet. Cross that bridge another day. Like you say, with less contact time.

It's not avoidance, per se. I consider it an important coping mechanism and wellness strategy to be able to recognise when something in your life is about to trigger you. Personally, I spend months preparing for visits to see my father. He has the wonderful ability to push nearly all of my many triggers. He even finds new triggers, manufactures them out of thin air for me... hahaha... and I'm sure I trigger him, too... giggle...

But back to the moral point. With anything to do with morality, I apply what I call The Happiness Principle. This is something I've developed myself. It's kind of my world view, my guiding compass in anything that I do.

I don't believe in any form of god or gods, and do not believe in predestiny, or anything much at all. To me there's either a big Nothing when I die, or I will get a pleasant surprise when I find myself still a consciously aware being after I die. Either way, speculating about it now is not really much use, is it? The Pope and the Dalai Lama know as much as me about anything that's there beyond the veil. They don't know. But they have shared faiths, they believe things, they see things in terms of right and wrong, good and bad (or evil?), punishment or reward, Heaven and Hell...

In order to be a good and just person with right morals, you must have a code that you follow, a principle. It needn't be an organised religion, because your values intersect with some religions perhaps, but diverge from them as well in certain areas. But even if you don't believe in any religion (and even when you do), you should always question your morality. Are you living up to them, and that sort of thing. Is this thing right, and this thing wrong...

That thing which guides you...

I was never really into other people telling me what was right and what was wrong. That's why I studied religions as a human phenomena, and scratched my head at it all for quite a while. Personally, I don't need to know about any of that. All (or None) will be revealed at the point of my death, so there's no point in delving into it... hahaha...

What's important is the moral compass we each have. For me, it's The Happiness Principle, which is fairly simple...

Will my action or inaction result in the maximum amount of Happiness?

If so, then it is a good and just thing. Proceed (or don't proceed). If not, then it is not a good and just thing, and another thing should be similarly considered...

It may be a simple rule, but it can get complicated. Personal sacrifice enters into life often. How much we give of ourselves, how much we bend ourselves into pretzel shapes and weird Picasso caricatures, just to accommodate others...

Me? I just want everyone to be happy, and I do as much as I can to make that happen, usually within the confines of my current ability to cope.

On another note, I have never understood humans that exist in the material world too much. I am a person who spends perhaps too much time in his own head than is good for him, but ah well, there we have it. How new is the car? How big is the house? Can you see a yacht from where you are currently sitting? All of that silly material world chasing around, devoting the only currency we truly have - time alive Now - chasing the big shiny things?

I prefer my spiritual sense of oneness with all of existence. I try to nurture life, and to create art where I can. If you hurt anyone or anything alive, by virtue of the spirit of consciousness and this amazing interconnection with everything, you are hurting yourself. That is what sends people over the edge into disorder and personal conflict.

I know it sounds all "Hey everyone, look! Si has gone all hippy Zen mystic monk", but it's just another part of The Happiness Principle to me...

Who'd have thunk that The Force taught us so much, huh? Hahaha...

Erm... sorry for another trademark Silenus ramble...

Huggles. Good luck with the glorious transformation from house to Home...

Hey @Mazarita!

Darn tootin'... well said. 🙂

Hey @Mazarita and @Silenus,

thanks so much for your support. It means a lot to me. I totally thought that someone out there would say to me "How can you be dishonest about something as important as a house? With your best friend, no less?".

But I see that you guys get it. It's no quite so simple as lying by admission, but more about protecting the friendship and enjoying the weekend to the utmost.

I even have an excuse for why I am not telling my friend sooner.... you see, we only just signed the contract and if the building inspection reveals any major flaws in the house, then the contract will be void. It's only a very tiny chance that this will happen, but where there is the possibility of any doubt, I feel more secure in my decision not to start telling the world about the house.

The other thing is that my friend will want to see pictures of the house, which means going to the real estate website, which means the price of the house will be revealed in all it's glory! I am not at all comfortable with my friend knowingn the cost of things we buy. I don't mind her knowing about stuff in general terms, but I don't like her being able to put an exact figure on things. It makes me uncomfortable that she is so materialistic, becuase I always get the impression she is evaluating me.

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@Silenus wrote:

On another note, I have never understood humans that exist in the material world too much. I am a person who spends perhaps too much time in his own head than is good for him, but ah well, there we have it. How new is the car? How big is the house? Can you see a yacht from where you are currently sitting? All of that silly material world chasing around, devoting the only currency we truly have - time alive Now - chasing the big shiny things?

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Hi @Silenus, I totally agree with you. As an artist, I have a good, solid relationship with the material world. I work with my hands, I try to make beautiful things and I love to see beautiful things. But a thing can be extremely beautiful without being expensive.

And an object can be extremely expensive without being beautiful! I do not like things simply because they have a (subjective) material value that makes people covert them.

What is important about our new house is that we will be there together and we will put our own personalities into the place and so we will grow in harmony and love with our house. But it is still only bricks and mortar. It is only a shelter from the cold, after all. It is not us and we are not it.

I do not like to be weighed up and judged according to my house. And I know there are millions of people out there who do not do this! Only I'm sad to say that my friend does do this.

Hi Sarah,

from my perspective, I think that if there is no transparency in a friendship, then it is not a honest friendship. I would be honest with her and I would tell her about it. If she understands, and is willing to change, all the better. But if she does not, then you can always find some other person to chat that will make you feel good. But if you have anxiety, this kind of friendship is a no no situation. Soner or later, she will make you feel awkward and that will trigger your anxiety. Not a good thing in my opinion. Nothing worse then friends making you feel unwell because it really hurts. Friends and family that have this personality disorder will always hurt you.

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@Sahara wrote:

Hi Everyone,

So: I am actually thinking of not telling her that we bought a house. That way I can enjoy the weekend, not have to worry about being criticised (the criticism only happens when something good occurs in my life) and tell her some other time when we have less time to spend together.

Do people out there think this is particularly dishonest?

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Hi @Sahara

Congrats on the new home purchase - very exciting! I hope it is everything you wanted, dreamed of and more!!

In regards to your above quote "the criticism from your friend only happens when something good happens to you". This fact "waves a big red flag". The essence and signs of true friendship is that our friends are genuinely happy for us when good things come our way and are people we can be open and honest with about anything whom give and support without seeking anything in return. Friends have our best interests at heart. The rest are acquaintances whom can be highly entertaining, interesting and good enjoyable company, no doubt; but aren't really there when the chips are down (in our darkest moments).

So I am inclined to agree with Joe in part (above post). I also believe you aren't being dishonest in regards to not telling her about the purchase of the new home - you are protecting yourself from her negative/selfish reaction. A reaction that can provoke distress/disharmony/anxiety. A good move. You are doing the right thing. She is not being a true friend.

An action becomes a moral dilemma only if we act thoughtlessly/selfishly in a way that hurts others Lacking in remorse; unwilling to acknowledge fault and not change (hence keep hurting others). And I believe from what you have posted only - that action is your friends moral dilemma. Someone needs to tell her how she makes others feel.

Enjoy the move and your new home my friend 🙂 xxx

Thanks @theaveragejoe,

I was thinking along the same lines as you, at first. For one thing, it is hard to hide good news from people and if you feel that you have to be hiding your good news.... then there really must be something wrong with the friendship.

It's very, very tricky. Too be honest with you, I believe that I am at a turning point in my relationship with this woman. Any, yes, in the past I have brought her negativity to her attention and she has been contrite. It has happened more frequently in the last year or so; - that I have felt the need to point out her unhelpful criticism and how it makes me feel. I believe this has resulted in a 'cooling off' in our friendship, to some degree.

Nether-the-less, we are still close and there is much to like about her.

Perhaps this weekend will be very pivotal in our friendship?

at the moment I do think I prefer to try and enjoy the weekend, keep things light and see what happens in the near future. It's like I don't want to make any rash decisions.

Thanks, @Former-Member,

it's great to hear from you! I hope you are very well... I haven't seen you here much on SANE. I'm on this forum most days; usually in the mornings.

I know that there is a deeper problem with my friend and I am side-stepping it somewhat. I believe we will always like each other and spend time together, but if I continue to pull her up on her unhelpful criticisms then things may deteriorate. They have already cooled off a little bit... we are at different stages in our lives, anyhow.

I am looking forward to seeing her. We always have fun. I do feel like I have to watch what I say, but I am naturally a guarded and private person, so I do this anyway.

Most of the time, my friend is very good to me.

Yes, it is a worry that my friend can't seem to be happy for people. It is a big character flaw. I am very sensitive to criticism as I grew up with a negative, critical mother. So when I realize my friend wants to criticize me, it really hurts. Others can brush it off and also give it back as good as it is given! I have trouble doing this.

The thing is, my friend comes from a place where she is not confident and happy within herself. I see this vulnerability and I really feel for her. She is in therapy and sometimes I amuse myself wondering if her therapist has come to the same conclusions about her as I have.

She actually attends group therapy, too. I wonder if her therapist recommended her for the group therapy thing because he knows exactly what her issues with others are???? I laugh to myself when I think of my friend trying to control her critical impulses in front of the group!

Hello again dear @Sahara

Good to hear from you as well ❤️.

I haven't been on SANE as much as I would like to be. I have a lot on my plate in my personal life at the moment - even though things have improved in my life (with daughter) I am still under a lot of stress with my own health and caring for my sick husband (happily) and I never stop. It gets a bit overwhelming but I keep pushing forward...I will try to post more as people on here are very important to me.

If you can go to this lady's house and enjoy yourself without being hurt or distressed then by all means go and have fun! - but in my humble opinion don't take with you any high expectations of true friendship. If you can emotionally distance yourself (look at her as an enjoyable "acquaintance" only). But if she causes you anxiety/hurt/distress then my concern for you is that it could do more harm than good by lowering your self esteem and confidence. You don't need that in your life? Personally I believe you deserve better - you are a beautiful person, never forget that.

The lady you speak of is bitter dear Sahara - that is why she likes to bring others down, that's what bitter people do. And holding onto bitterness can cause mental instability; - so yes she is troubled, but knows what she is doing as many like yourself have told her, she isn't stupid - she is choosing to hold onto her bitterness; until she owns her negative emotions and works on them by coming out of denial (similar to an alcoholic) - nothing will change for her and she will continue not only to hurt herself but those around her and push them away. Can you handle this?

Can you put your self esteem/anxiety/heart at a distance and be non-effected by her, and talk only of non personal things, others and events? Is that enough for you in this relationship? Something only you can answer. If the answer is yes - go and have fun. If no, think twice.

I have experienced such relationships in life and needed to finally put them to rest as they were having a negative effect on my mind. I personally would rather be alone than treated less than respectful. It's all or nothing with me. I have managed to find a few true friends as by dismissing the false ones I had more time/energy for those who really cared.

Good luck with everything my friend - let us know how it goes.