Fragile

@Dimity oh I just saw the picture of the appleblossom

I have a carpet rose called appleblossom it has been well cut back and is looking gorgeous in my front garden at the moment.

Lost for words. GRATEFUL.

@Appleblossom @Dimity

I'm really interested in your discussion around the term/language of "recovery", but i think i am not understanding (either missing context or i am misinformed), and of the NDIS psychosocial.

My interpretation of the way SANE uses the term "recovery" is that it includes learning how to manage symptoms to be able to live a meaningful life (which includes the possibility that symptom-free may not be realistic for some).

For NDIS, the condition has to be "permanent" disability. If it is "fixable" then it isn't a permanent disability and won't be eligible.

Or are you talking not about the eligible disability itself, but that the psychosocial impact has to be non-permanent in order for them to fund supports for it? (I don't see how this would be possible for some disabilities though, such as those who need supports for communication to engage in social activities - or does that not fall under psychosocial?)

Oh @AlwaysMyself I like how you engage. I have known so many close people with substantial mental health struggles of different kinds, I am looking at far more than just for me.

I am interested in lots of aspects about RECOVERY. I personally tend to focus on THERAPEUTIC as a concept, from way way back when I did a few years in Psychoanalysis and Social Theory, and Psychodrama and Sociometry, before the word psychosocial, and Recovery were thrown around. I definitely like an approach that has helpful strategies and hopeful and improved outcomes, based on understanding etiology and trauma, as opposed to some of the old pathologising and ableist language that used to circulate last century. I like how Recovery can encourage people to reframe and sometimes shrink their inner critic, and help them drop putting themselves down when in a negative spiral. I like the "recovery is not a straight line" memes and the CHIME approach.

I also enjoyed when STRENGTHS and WELLNESS based approaches came out. I am interested in a broad range of ideas that encourage personal growth and development and insight, more than simply coming from being, or not being, hospitalised.

A lot depends on the art and skill of various workers and how they bring out these good and healthy approaches in others and in community.

I have seen people fall through the cracks, and some other reactions if the concepts are applied too rigidly. I have seen it advertised in a hospital but not really practised. I have seen some kind of brag about being recovered, and yet have limited capabilities. I wanted to open it up, rather than just pushing accepted narrative.

Yes there are NDIS criteria around permanent disability. Also new ways of thinking that differently abled humans have rights to a full life. I am at the age and stage where there is quite an overlap between aging and disability, yet also often in carer roles. It can all get bloomin complicated. Accepting my limitations seems key, while still working towards optimum experiences. Just shooting the breeze. Bella.

@Dimity @heartathome @AuntGlow @Shaz51

I just about need a dictionary beside me to read your post @Appleblossom . 😉 You know your stuff and explain it very well, but I don't understand many of the words.

I just about learn a new word each time you post. My new words today are Sociometry (method of psychology and group work) and etiology (the cause or origin of something)

I like how Recovery can encourage people to reframe and sometimes shrink their inner critic (this has been something I've worked on for a few years now and this forum helps that. I can't get away with putting myself down here! 😉 I'm much more aware of it these days!  

I like the "recovery is not a straight line" I see it more of a spiral

I also enjoyed when STRENGTHS and WELLNESS based approaches came out - Me too Appleblossom! I think SANE is one of these.

I love the way you are so passionate about mental health and different abilities. I think I'm passionate but I but don't have anything like your experience or knowledge! I do like reading what you post though and appreciate the tag! 💛

Thank you @Appleblossom , you explain it well as @heartathome said. 😊 I find myself agreeing with everything you said, although of course I don't have the comparison to thr previous/older methods mentioned other than a very cursory knowledge that people used to be institutionalised for many MH challenges rather than treated, eg "hysteria".

I've been exploring the idea of applying to NDIS (after it has been suggested by a number of supports), even though i don't expect they will accept it. Sadly the fact i was taught to self-manage and have self-control to not end up hospitalised at all will have a negative impact on "evidence" of MH disability. Also that fact that I have had it so long that when i did have intensive psychology and psychiatry treatment was all more than 10 year ago and paper-based reconds, which will likely have been shredded years ago. And the reason i stopped those supports was because it was too expensive for "maintenance care" since there was nothing more to try that could functionally improve my condition. But, i owe it to myself to at least try and apply. Maybe i will be able to get enough "evidence", although without paying big $$ for a psychiatrist assessment it sounds unlikely. A letter from my counsellor (not a registered psych) alongside my GP's application evidence is apparently not enough - they need a registered psych or a psychiatrist report.

I was told I will have more likehood to apply for my MH rather than for my CFS.

But i am grateful that some people get funding for the supports they need. I know many many people who need it miss out too.

Maintaining "recovery" is very difficult without the supports that help to do the essentials.

Hoping the rest of your week has panned out OK?

Weekend plans?

I forget which days you do which chiors.

Wishing you a gentle day! @AlwaysMyself Thanks for looking out for me the other day! 💛

@AlwaysMyself I was a bit taken aback by your questions.i haven't been in a good headspace so didn't reply immediately.

Several days ago I read a news item suggestiong folk with psychosocial disability may be barred from NDIS due to common inability to sustain goals of independence in daily living. I can't re-find the news item in question to check it but for about 3 years there's been speculation on similar themes regarding recognition of psychosocial disability and it's perhaps confusing when permanent disability is set against the NDIS hurdle requirements for goal setting, in order to nominate supports needed to achieve those goals. The process of goal setting may be fraught for many living with mental health concerns, let alone achieving those goals, and it's not clear why psychosocial disability should be singled out from eg motor or sensory disabilities in speculation about distinguishing "foundational supports" from core NDIS concerns. Also, some psychosocial and neurological disabilities may be episodic or intermittent in the longterm further complicating the idea of achieving "improvements" in lifestyle or functioning.

To be honest I don't altogether understand the necessity for a recovery framework except as an imposed moral or ethical requirement for a trajectory of improvement as some sort of virtuous quid pro quo for the investment. This possibly also lies behind the distinction between impairments caused by chronic and terminal medical conditions - which aren't covered - and impairments caused by "disability" - which are, subject to changes in definition. And I guess psychosocial, psychiatric and neurological conditions may be in some sort of nebulous grey area outside functional disability and medical diagnoses. This may leave them vulnerable to ableist notions of personal responsibility and accountability for compliance with the administrative and economic need to demonstrate return on investment.

77 years ago the Universal Declaration of Human Rights set out aspirations for quality of life across many spheres. Perhaps that could form a checklist: which rights are currently denied or jeopardised, and in which areas of life folk's freedom of choice is constrained, leading to analysis of why, and how things may be bettered.

But I'm just riffing. I haven't been through the exercise. A psychologist recommended I pursue NDIS for myself when I was 60, when i think it was still being rolled out piecemeal, region by region. I held back and let the window close. I'm old enough to have lived through the closure of institutionalised residential psychiatric hospitals and the failed promises of roll-out of community services, and the later closure of charitable and State-funded services after the introduction of newer neoliberal models of self-managed care through fee for service providers federally funded by NDIS. At various times psychiatrists expected me to fall back from sickness benefits to disability benefits but I clawed my way back to the labour force. It was a rocky ride and unsuccessful overall. In terms of the UDHR I missed out on many freedoms most take for granted. It's probably left me cynical.

Apologies for the rant @Appleblossom . It's a long account that perhaps gives some context to my mistrust of blithely applying the recovery model.

That makes so much more sense now on what you meant @Dimity 😊. I really appreciate the time spent to explait it more. Thank you!

I haven't yet looked into the "goal setting" part of NDIS, as I'm only just starting the discussion on what "evidence" my health providers and I need to provide to "prove" permanent MH disability and past treatments exhausted.

I had heard they were restricting even further the ability for funding for both MH and ASD supports, presumably because of the number of people affected by the conditions and they didnt budget for these costs in their planning :face_with_rolling_eyes:.

I would have thought (hoped!) that "goals" could include maintenance-level activities -- such as being able to attend social gatherings, being able to go to the shops, being able to work part-time, etc etc. Things that without supports might not be possible. (Noting that for me my biggest barrier is physical energy / exhaustion, not handling stress when exhausted, motivation, and severe chronic anhedonia. So for me the biggest aid NDIS could provide is supports that reduce my exhaustion from daily activities.)

It really is crazy if they are expecting these supports to "improve" a persons baseline condition over time. You can only get the support if your condition is not improvable! How contradictory.

And i can assure anyone that my Deaf friends who have interpreters or hearing aids do not improve their level of deafness over time in order to not need their supports 🤣. But their goals of "maintaining/accessing social gatherings" is achieved by use of their supports each time.

Gosh that is crazy if the NDIA are unhappy that people are ongoing requiring just as many supports as before 😅. Thats the nature of permanent disability.

It would be good if they setup a MH specific scheme maybe. Could be better tailored to understanding and assessing MH required supports.

Sort of how diabetics have subsidy schemes for their products (which people without a diabetes diagnosis, eg insulin resistence, are not eligible for). Its not NDIS because its "health", but it still has a financial support scheme.

Agreed @AlwaysMyself . And of course my "source" was just a news item that mentioned possibly restricting NDIS, I can't find anything even vaguely official apart from discussions underway in 2023.

I trust you and your team can put together a good case for the supports you need. I have a family member who's arguably too disabled to put together an application although I'm sure they could benefit enormously from appropriate supports.

HUGS AND HUGS @heartathome

I appreciate your goodwill and the things that we do share.

I dont mean to be clinical or abrupt when discussing complex concepts. I do plan to write more next year, so that then I can unpack thing more. God, you should have seen all the dense complicated stuff I have read over the years. I guess I have integrated a lot and been personally impacted.

Eg Jacques Lacan ... Talk about depersonalisation and derealisation. LOL...Did he have NPD? He had a big celebrity student following.

have you ever looked at him @AuntGlow @AlwaysMyself @Dimity He was all the rage in my undergrad .... now I am old enough and socialised with enuff academics to take them all with a grain of salt. Had time to reflect back...