Neurofeedback

@CheerBear It's just as well I'm getting these sessions funded under ATAPS, otherwise I'd have to bill you for that tip. I'm super glad you are going to be my sitting-still-for-three-minutes buddy. Of course, you can't sit too close to me...but I'm still glad you're there.

@Phoenix_Rising Wrote:

reminded me of some occassions when my uni counsellor would be almost falling off her chair laughing and I was like "K why are you laughing, I'm not trying to be funny," and she would start laughing even more and tell me "I know, that's what makes it so funny."

OMG I am sooooo channelling your uni counsellor right now!! Zegactly!!! lol ... and it is!!

@Phoenix_Risingwill read this weeks thingo soon as I get this other stuff sorted in my head,.. I'm sure you understand:- no need to enhance the muddle in my head right now LOL!!

@Phoenix_Risingwrote:

"Spookytookims Hee hee, yes things take me a looooooong time - have I mentioned that my 4 year degree took me 12 years!!!!! Well I AM a turtle you know! And yes, you are correct, I don't do inferences. Let's have another go at trying to get on the same wavelength - which is kind-of funny given we are on my neurofeedback t

"Neuroplasticity: The brain's ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections throughout life." Correct. On this we agree! Yes [phew at least that’s something 😉 ]

You then said in your other post that neurofeedback was the electronic form of [,,,ok let’s add in…] manipulating neuroplasticity.

This is not right because, as per your definition above, neuroplasticity is a characteristic [ability] of THE BRAIN. Here, let me think of an analogy...um...ok, I think I've got one…

A characteristic of Phoenix_Rising is her giggliness. Techniques for making Phoenix_Rising giggle include posting funny pictures, creating muddling conversations like this one, and writing stories about her being stuck on an island where she is clearly the only sane one around. [ - flying turtles??? seriously? but I digress…..]

Now...those three techniques have the effect of making Phoenix_Rising giggle, but they themselves are not sorts of giggliness. Likewise, the brain has the characteristic of neuroplasticity. Techniques for making the brain form new neural connections include neurofeedback, EMDR and mindfulness. These three techniques have the effect of changing the brain, but they themselves are not sorts of neuroplasticity.

How's that @Spookytookims? You do know of course that I expect this conversation to somehow morph into a storyline on Turtle Island, right?" [LOL oh gawd!!]
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Ok I see what is going on here… no I don’t agree it has the characteristics, I think it has the ability…. which means because it has the ability to do it, we can influence it by manipulating that ability.

Hence, you are doing it via an electronic mechanism, I did it via thinking and focus,

So, take fractals as an example. depending on focus you can manipulate/switch your mind to view them in different ways. Hence utilising the neuroplasticity ability of your brain. When you do this, different pathways will be utilised because different results can be obtained.

Therefore, via the ability of neuroplasticity, we are controlling what we see and how we perceive it.

Neurofeedback, does the same thing, trains the brain utilising that same ability but “controlling” it by viewing the results on a visual representation of brain activity and attempting to teach the brain to respond within a certain parameter.

If the brain lacked the ability of neuroplasticity, it would be set, and this would not be possible. Once a pattern was learnt, that would be the pattern maintained throughout life. Old thinking dictated that was the case, breakthroughs in understanding neuroplasticity have now shone light on the fact that this is not the case. That no matter how old we are we can change those patterns through thoughts, which manipulate our brain activity to elicit different emotional responses and stimulate different pathways of activity particularly in the limbic system. Which relates to memory as well. But again.. that’s a whole other framework in my head that I could write an essay on. So please don’t make me!!

You wrote: “These three techniques have the effect of changing the brain, but they themselves are not sorts of neuroplasticity.”

Ok now I have to tell you I don’t think that is quite right lol!! It might be but it isn’t what current neuroplasticity research is primarily about, not as I understand it.

Current experiments are more about proving the pathways and electronic reactions in the brain, the activity, not actually changing the brain itself, changing how it reacts. Although they are thinking that might be physically possible, and there is anecdotal evidence to support it, it isn’t seriously being investigated - well not publicly anyhow probably in the dark drone govt black ops it is!

Ok… now that is how I understand it… and to me just writing it the way I did was a lot easier!!! lol Granted it assumes the other person has a level of understanding they may not, but without writing a thesis it’s kind of hard to touch on everything. Rather it’s more a forum to offer a topic and if the person is interested enough… google is your answer baby!!

I did also post something on it way back in the what’s new section, which went into the research on it Dr Mario Beauregard is doing.

Ok I'm done! lol exhausted actually! ... yes I think somehow some way this MUST be woven into a Turtle Island Episode... oh gawd !!

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@Adge wrote:
That giggliness analogy was a great one @Phoenix_Rising
I've heard of neuro plasticity but didn't know much about it.
I've always wanted to do EMDR for cptsd - but several psychologists told me that they won't do EMDR with cptsd clients (like me).

They consider it too risky (& refused), which is soo frustrating.

Adge

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@Adge That is disappointing that you haven't found anyone to do EMDR with you. I would definitely keep searching if it is something you want to try. I'm pretty confident there is someone out there that would be willing to work with you (though whether they would be anywhere near you geographically is another question entirely!). I can definitely relate to the frustration. It is SO frustrating trying to find decent support. There are just so many unhelpful mental health professionals out there!

Hi @Spookytookims. I've done a cut and paste job here because I need to move on to other things. However, hopefully it makes sense.

Neuroplasticity: The brain's ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections throughout life." Correct. On this we agree! Yes [phew at least that’s something ] Yay!!!!! {Runs around wildly waving arms in the air like Kermit}.

You then said in your other post that neurofeedback was the electronic form of [,,,ok let’s add in…] manipulating neuroplasticity. That makes much more sense.

Ok I see what is going on here… no I don’t agree it has the characteristics, I think it has the ability…. I think this is where we are hitting a simple issue of grammar like @cheerbear was saying. Phoenix_Rising has the ability to giggle at pretty much anything. A characteristic of Phoenix_Rising is that she has the ability to giggle at pretty much anything. To me, these sentences are saying the same thing, just phrased differently. I THINK the difference is that the first is written in the present simple tense whereas the second is written in the present perfect continous tense. However, I am of the generation that wasn't taught grammar at school so I'm not really sure about this.

...which means because it has the ability to do it, we can influence it by manipulating that ability. Hence, you are doing it via an electronic mechanism, I did it via thinking and focus. That sounds right to me.

You wrote: "These three techniques have the effect of changing the brain, but they themselves are not sorts of neuroplasticity."

Ok now I have to tell you I don’t think that is quite right lol!! It might be but it isn’t what current neuroplasticity research is primarily about, not as I understand it.

Current experiments are more about proving the pathways and electronic reactions in the brain, the activity, not actually changing the brain itself, changing how it reacts. Although they are thinking that might be physically possible, and there is anecdotal evidence to support it, it isn’t seriously being investigated - well not publicly anyhow probably in the dark drone govt black ops it is! I haven't read the literature enough to have an opinion on whether the changes that occur in the brain are structural or not.

As an aside, I just found a website which explains neuroplasticity nicely. It has a link to a 50 minute video titled "the brain that changes itself." I haven't watched it, but I plan to. I know one of the most influential books in this area has that same title - it is on my "to read" list at some point. Here's the link to the website if anyone is interested:

http://www.brainworksneurotherapy.com/what-neuroplasticity

Hi @CherryBomb @utopia@lisajane@Shaz51@Zoe7@Appleblossom @Tookyspookims @Faith-and @Lunar @NikNik @lisajane @Kurra @CheerBear@suzanne @Seuss @lapses@Teesha22 @Adge@outlander

Well THAT didn't go according to plan!!!!! I had my neurofeedback session today...sort of. This is going to be quite long-winded so I will understand if you get bored and quit reading before the end. I really just need to talk it out.

So...I think I've mentioned that I don't really like the actual psychologist at the practice where I do the neurofeedback, but that's ok because I have very little to do with her and an intern psychologist who I get along fine with actually does the neurofeedback.

Well...two weeks ago, the psychologist who I don't like (S) wanted to have a "chat" with me. The "chat" ended up going for almost an hour and I found it incredibly unhelpful. She clearly didn't remember a thing about me from the initial session where we spoke, and for some reason she hadn't bothered to spend five minutes reading my file so that she could at least pretend to have some idea about my situation. It was AWFUL. She kept throwing absurdly flippant and simplistic solutions at me regarding my employment puzzle. For example, after reminding her that my degree was in psychology, she told me to just do my masters so that I'd have it done just in case I wanted to use it down the track. Er...a masters degree costs tens of thousands of dollars, and given it took me five years to complete my 1-year honours program, the 2-year masters program could take me up to a decade. Not exactly something I want to do for "just in case" purposes! And then, the crowning glory was that I told her one of the reasons I was starting to feel better was that my relationship with A is improving. S responded with "...oh so there's an improvement in your relationship, but you two don't live together do you." I just stared at her and said "A is my psychologist." Given that I have only relatively recently disentangled myself from a "complicated" relationship with my psychologist of sixteen years, I cannot begin to tell you how very very VERY icky this made me feel - grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So anyway, this all happened a fortnight ago. Last week, the intern psychologist (W) started as he always did by asking how my week was and I vented about how I'd been super struggling after the conversation with S. He was super good about it and assured me he would make sure I didn't need to go through that again. Thus for me, the matter was now closed.

And so we get to today. I was uncomfortable going into the building, but it was fine. When I went in with W, he began by telling me he had spoken with S and she acknowledged that she had not handled the conversation with me well. Apparently she told W that it was the end of the day and she was in a bit of a rush. But now here's the thing...apparently I need to see her after every couple of sessions or so as part of the agreement under ATAPS (the program that is funding the sessions). She recognises that her very presence is intensely distressing for me now. So...she feels it would be best for me to start paying for the neurofeedback so that I don't have to see her as per the rules of ATAPS.

So...just to be clear here. I am eligible for 18 funded sessions. I clearly explained during the first session that I have a psychologist, I am not there to do therapy, I am just there for the neurofeedback. AT NO POINT was I told I would need to meet with S as part of the funding arrangement. And now, because she totally messed up because it was the end of the day and she wasn't fully engaged with the process of connecting with me, she is asking me to pay for the service, which I already have funding approved for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I hadn't already experienced so much incompetence by so many mental health professionals, I would never believe such a situation could arise!!!!

Well...I did what any sane and rational person would do...I went completely ballistic - complete with yelling, crying, headbanging, throwing myself on the floor, rocking, stimming and screaming for A (my psychologist). W was SUPER good with the spectacular meltdown. He called A's office and left a message for her to call urgently, and then we just sat on the floor (well he was sitting, I was lying) and rode out the very very VERY big wave until A called back. It super helped talking to A and the plan is that she is going to speak with S and try to sort something out. After I spoke with A, I did actually get around to doing two rounds of neurofeedback, but my brain was all scrambled and I didn't do so well. Actually, my poor performance was due to tiredness rather than the big feelings per se. It takes a LOT of energy to go berserk!

Sigh... so now I pretty much feel like I've been squashed by a truck, and I feel shattered. Last night when I went to the scary meeting (which I wrote about in the worry room), I was super prepared and was working on using all my coping strategies in the hours leading up to the meeting. However, I got completely blindsided today. Even though I didn't feel super comfortable going into the building, I had no sense of actual anxiety or anything and thus I hadn't done any sort of psyching up for the appointment or anything. Now my body is once again primed for the idea that something bad is going to happen at any moment. Nothing and no-one is safe. Everything is scary and bad. I feel broken and hopeless, as I recognise that the calmness I am gradually creating in my world isn't because I'm in any way "better", but simply because I'm becoming so reclusive, I'm managing to avoid triggers most of the time. However, when the big feelings ARE triggered, they are just as spectacular as ever.

So, that's today's rather unexpected neurofeedback adventure. On the bright side, W got to see what a meltdown actually looks like, and even though I think he handled it super well, he was physically shaking while he was sitting on the floor with me...which was fine...cos we talked about those sorts of physiological reactions. It was also an opportunity to experience how A truly does have my back, and that makes me feel safe. Our relationship still has some bumps that we need to work through, but we are definitely on the right track and I am super super SUPER grateful that I found her...even if I did have to experience eight epic fails along the way.

I super hope next week'e episode of Phoenix_Rising's Neurofeedback Adventure is slightly less...well...adventurous. I super hope this reality show doesn't get prematurely axed. I feel super yuck tonight...but better for having talked it out to all of you.

Thank you for caring about me.

@Phoenix_Rising you know what I really love about you? No matter how bad something is... you always manage to come out with something like this:

"Well...I did what any sane and rational person would do...I went completely ballistic - complete with yelling, crying, headbanging, throwing myself on the floor, rocking, stimming and screaming for A (my psychologist). W was SUPER good with the spectacular meltdown."