Henry's Landing Strip & Hangar

Hello Again @1stepup61 , and others visiting this thread

A brief addition to the aeroplane discussion,

in particular with regard to "Flying Boats" or "Seaplanes"

the Brisbane River,

Queensland and Quantas.

This book might also be an interesting insight into a possibly forgotten period of Australia's aircraft and airline history. I find it interesting that I was possibly watching the end of that story as I watched a few of those "Flying Boats" landing on and taking off from the Brisbane River in the early to mid 1950's

With Best Wishes

@HenryX

Hello @1stepup61

I noticed that you had acknowledged by "Support" the message about "Wings on the River". Thank you, and I really appreciate that acknowledgement.

My post following this one gives, I believe, the closest to a most likely, or plausible answer to your question about the plane in which your relative is likely to have flown. The Long Post, prior to the one about the details on "Wings on the River" provides the overall background with regard to flights within Australia, on the East Coast and including the West Coast, and flights to and from Australia from overseas. The flights described were flown during peace time, before and after the second world war, and also during the war.

I apologise for the broken nature of these posts, but the first was restricted to a specific character count (although, at the time of posting, I was just under the character count limit) and the subsequent posts have been added as I sourced the various pieces of information and detail. The study covers a lot of websites and I do hope that the content will be clear and of interest to you @1stepup61 and others, as, I believe, it has been of interest to others judging by the "Support" acknowledgements so far. Thank You All.

I do hope that the longer post will not be too daunting, but it can be read in sections. As will be apparent, I enjoyed collecting the information and it was a very pleasant and personally rewarding exercise for me.

If there are any questions, about the topic of various aircraft, or with regard to access and use of the SANE forums, I would be very pleased to have the opportunity to assist in any way that I am able.

With My Very Best Wishes

@HenryX

Hello @1stepup61 , @Emelia8 , @Anastasia , @Appleblossom , @Former-Member

Edit: 12.40 am Wed 10 Nov '21. Quite a lot of the information in this post has been added and hopefully, made more clear

Flights between the USA and Australia, are refered to in the following text, part of which specifically identifies the type of plane used, as the:

The DC-4 {possibly with reduced passenger loading for such flights}

{introduced in 1942 with United Airlines} pass cap = 44. Range = 5,300 km

The Douglas DC-4 {below} a four-engine aircraft with tricycle undercarriage

The text, which includes the photo of Charles Kingsford Smith, provides more particulars about flights between the USA and Australia, during the period following WW II. The extract, below, is from the following website:

https://simpleflying.com/qantas-transpacific-flight-history/

"Charles Kingsford Smith paved the way for Qantas

The first-ever transpacific flight took place in 1928. Charles Kingsford Smith, Charles Ulm, Harry Lyon, and James Warren flew from Oakland, California to Brisbane, Queensland, in a Fokker F.VIIb. They left on May 31 and landed in Australia on June 9, having flown via Hawaii and Fiji. The total time in the air was over 83 hours."

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Fokker+F.VIIb#

The Fokker F.VII, also known as the Fokker Trimotor, was an airliner produced in the 1920s by the Dutch aircraft manufacturer Fokker, Fokker's American subsidiary Atlantic Aircraft Corporation, and other companies under licence. Role: Passenger & military transport

Manufacturer: Fokker

First flight: 24 November 1924

Introduction: 1925

Status: Retired

Primary users: SABENA & KLM Polish Air Force Polskie Linie Lotnicze LOT

Produced: 1925-1932

Developed from: Fokker F.V

Variants: Fokker F.10

"It was to be a few years before Qantas followed in Smithy’s footsteps. There were flights across the Pacific, but between Smithy’s flight and WWII, Qantas preferred to look north and west. By the mid-1930s, Qantas had reached Singapore and was eyeing England, laying the foundations for the fabled Kangaroo Route."

Charles Kingsford Smith. Photo: National Library of Australia

Other airlines offer transpacific services before Qantas gets onboard

Meanwhile, the transpacific action got left to airlines like British Commonwealth Pacific Airlines (BCPA), which was a joint venture between the Australian, New Zealand, and British Governments. Between 1946 and 1954, BCPA flew across the Pacific. However, BCPA was a post-war virtual airline. It chartered all the flights to Australian National Airways and their Douglas DC-4s.

In 1951, Pan American began its twice-weekly ‘Stratocruiser’ services through to Sydney. It wasn’t only flights between Australia and North America that were capturing attention. South America was also on the radar. In the same year, there was an Australian Government supported survey flight between Australia and Chile.

{My note: Presumably, a reference to the P.G. Taylor: Pioneer return flight Australia to South America mentioned in a previous post}

It ran via Noumea – Suva – Satapuala Bay (Samoa) – Aitutaki (Cook Is.) – Papeete – Mangareva – Easter Island and forged a path for today’s flights between Australia and South America.

With Very Best Wishes

@HenryX

Hi @HenryX thank you for this great post which I enjoyed reading about the planes that flew in Australia, UK, USA & everywhere in between. In 1946 Australian National Airways ordered Douglas DC-4 planes to fly to North America from Sydney via Auckland, Fiji, Hawaii and San Francisco. The Australian National Airlines used the DC-3 in and before 1947 which was a popular plane at the time. On Ancestry I could view his boarding information from Honolulu to Los Angeles, in 1947 on his return flight back to Los Angeles and there was about 22 people on the flight, so I think the plane was a Douglas DC-3 because that plane could hold 21-32 people on board and was extremely popular at the time, where as the new DC-4 held 50 people? It must of been nail biting flying in those days, as there was a lot of passenger plane accidents in the late 40s and the early days of long haul flights.

i remember my first flight was in a Fokker Friendship in 1976 from Wagga to Sydney. Then in 1979 I remember watching a USA B-52 fly in to Darwin Airforce Base, now that was a huge plane.

in your pictures the Catalina Flying Boat was amazing and I loved the name of the Lockheed Super Constellation which you remember seeing as a boy. I can imagine seaplanes being used on the Brisbane River, as it’s a huge river perfect for seaplanes. I wonder why they went out of fashion?

i had a lesson today in not forgetting battery life while engrossed in writing a post. As earlier I spent ages writing this return post to you and I did not notice my internet go down which lost me my post which is why this post is late sorry.

Once again, thanks so much for the information you gathered, as it has been so helpful. I think you would be a great researcher. Well goodnight and I hope you have a good nights rest. All the best to you and your family. with kind regards from @1stepup61

Hello @1stepup61

@Emelia8, @Anastasia , @Former-Member , @Appleblossom , @Meowmy

and others visiting the "Hangar" thread

"

Thank you very much for your reply @1stepup61 . I'm glad that you enjoyed reading the details and also the fact that you have been able to access the references via Ancestry.

"

As I said, having written I think, four posts, I eventually found what I thought might have been the type of plane. I agree with you that flying would have been a relatively high risk venture, even on commercial flights. However, I do believe that the sense of freedom following the war would often have made fear subservient to the sense of adventure and excitement about new possibilities.

"

There were also people with the skills and knowledge, accumulated during the war, that could be transferred into civil applications such as would have been the case for pilots. While the regulations would have been fairly stringent, even then, there was also a sense of bravado, which may also, at times, have transferred a war time risk perspective, by some pilots, into civil applications.

"

In the post that referred to Charles Kingsford-Smith's flight in 1928, I had wanted to include information about the later Fokker Friendship, which was a very popular plane in Australian airlines, however, the character count killed that inclusion. Maybe for another post.

"

It is interesting that a number of other members have also indicated interest in the subject, as shown by "Support" acknowledgements. Thank you for the opportunity to do the research and put together material that appears to have been well received. The project gave me considerable satisfaction and personal enjoyment and added more information to support my own memories, as a child, of flights of "Flying Boats", otherwise known as "Seaplanes", from and onto the Brisbane River and the "Constellations" over head.

"Pictures in words".

"

With My Best Wishes

@HenryX

Hi @HenryX I was looking at the picture of the C-21C Super Constillation plane, it’s design is really different the tail and top of plane almost looks like fins? Re-reading what I wrote and what you sent me to read, do you think the plane would have been a DC-4 because Pan America was already using them? My great uncles flight from Honolulu was with Pan America. Maybe flying out of Australia he may have been on a DC-3 because the DC-4 wasn’t ordered in Australia till 1946? I can see why people become plane watchers as a hobby, because they are very interesting. The mixture of different incredible plane designs, travel to far away places and how amazingly, humans made it so we could fly! An incredible feat! Bye for now, @1stepup61

Good morning @HenryX Yes, I never thought about the excitement of the times, just after the war and the pilots during the war would have found plenty of work after the war, so I could imagine the bravado you mentioned. I liked the nickname they gave the constellation, the Connie!

I have enjoyed this topic. @1stepup61

Hello @1stepup61 @HenryX

What a wonderful new friendship you have made with each other. It's been nice to be included and read both of your sentiments around a shared interest. It's great you came back @1stepup61 and found dear Henry 🤗

Hello @1stepup61

The reason that I suggested the DC-4 was because:

{These references are from various parts of the material in my earlier posts}

Between 1946 and 1954, BCPA flew across the Pacific. However, BCPA was a post-war virtual airline. It chartered all the flights to Australian National Airways and their Douglas DC-4s.

Flights between the USA and Australia, are refered to in the following text, part of which specifically identifies the type of plane used, as the

The DC-4 {possibly with reduced passenger loading for such long flights}

{introduced in 1942 with United Airlines} pass cap = 44. Range = 5,300 km

Flight distance from Sydney to Hawaii is 5,100 miles (8,210 km)

{with island rests and refuel stops en route.}

Flight distance from Hawaii to Los Angeles is 2,556 miles (4113 km) in just one leg

{no refuel points between the two locations, Hawaii and Los Angeles.}

So the longest single leg would be from Hawaii to Los Angeles a distance of ~4200 km.

Douglas Aircraft Company

7. The DC-2 {from 1934, with Trans World Airlines} pass cap. = 14. Range 1,600 km

8. The DC-3 {from 1936, with American Airlines} pass cap. = 21 to 32. Range 2,500 km

Douglas DC-3 {below}

The first successful commercial propeller-driven airliner

The DC-4 {from 1942 with United Airlines} pass cap = 44. Range = 5,300 km

The Douglas DC-4 {below} a four-engine aircraft with tricycle undercarriage introduced {1942 with United Airlines}.

Suggested analysis.

The longest leg is from Hawaii to Los Angeles, a distance of Distance = ~4200 km

The DC-3 {from 1936 American Airlines} pass cap. = 21 to 32. Range = 2,500 km

The DC-4 {from 1942 United Airlines} pass cap = 44. Range = 5,300 km

At initial comparison, the DC-3 does not have, in standard configuration, the range to cover the distance from Hawaii to Los Angeles, ~4200 km. They could have reduced passenger numbers, and increased fuel load with auxilliary tanks. However, even doubling the fuel load, which I think, would have been unlikely in any case, particularly in civil applications, there would only be an outside marginal reserve of 800 km (possibly less with the initial take-off fuel load). I do believe that this arrangement, even at that time, would not have been acceptable.

The other option would be the DC-4. It has a passenger capacity of 44, possibly reduced on such a long flight. The plane has a range, in standard configuration, of 5,300 km, that would allow a margin of 1,100 km without requiring to carry additional fuel. This, I believe would have been acceptable. It is likely that the flights would not always have been near full passenger capacity at that time, such as they have been in more recent times.

If your great uncle was traveling in 1947, that would have been twelve months after the commencement of the British Commonwealth Pacific Airlines (BCPA) flights to America which were chartered to Australian National Airways and their Douglas DC-4s.

So the factors that I have considered are:

The longest leg distance = ~4,200 km

Range (in standard configuration) of the planes,

the DC-3 at Range = 2,500 km

the DC-4 at Range = 5,300 km {to increase the range, the passenger manifest is likely to have been reduced by one third, which would allow for 30 Passengers, even if the flights were normally fully booked to the reduced numbers}

DC-4 services commence 1946

The year of flight, I understand, was 1947

The four engines of the DC-4 would have allowed for redundency should one or possibly two engines fail during the flight.

I hope that the details match the information that you have.

Wit My Best Wishes

@HenryX

It's great you have an interest with planes etc. @HenryX

I think I figured out why the helicopters are flying through the night. I live near a hospital @Appleblossom

How are you @Anastasia I'm sorry to hear you're going through "hell" @Emelia8

It's difficult when one has lived with an abusive person and suddenly they're gone. I've been through similar. You love them, but hate their behaviour. Always remember that you are a very kind and caring person.