Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Hi @Historylover

I have been taking time out for self-care - I read this post late this afternoon and decided I had to reply

It is NEVER OKAY for someone to touch someone else inappropriately for any reason. I am totally on your side. I am really sorry that the men in this so-called "friendly-club" have bonded together in the "we all pat the dog" scenario - this is such discriminatory and sexist behaviour. It is just plain bad

Imagine if a number of women all got together to "pat" one of the men. I imagine that would not be taken with the same humour,

I am glad you posted - I am glad I happened to read it. And I do wish you the best

Dec

So good to hear from you, @Owlunar . I've been wondering about you. I was going to send out a search party but found you had commented on another's post, so I knew you were about.

I know I am right - but it feels so good to have you back me up. Thank you! It's just so wrong on so many levels. The only time I touch others is with true affection and warmth - and I can't imagine there would be many times I would do so to a man - especially one I hardly know.

EDIT: Actually, there are times when I would hug a man, especially one in need - without hesitation - but only when it was appropriate.

Take care, Dec. It's so good to hear from you - and thank you for the backup.

@Historylover I am so sorry you are having to deal with this horrendously sexist and discriminatory behaviour.
And bravo to you for calling it out. It is utterly shameful behaviour and for others to now gang up on you and treat you like the proverbial pet to stroke is just unacceptable.
There is absolutely no excuse for it and from what you describe it is bordering on assault.

Are you the member of a union? I'm not sure from your post as to whether this is a place of work or a social club? If it's work, you definitely have grounds for a sexual harassment claim. If it's a social club, you could contact the owner and make a complaint if you wanted to take it further.

I was a police officer for 12 years and sexual harassment was rife. So I know a little of how you feel. Degrading women or anyone for that matter is never acceptable. I hope you can get this issue sorted for your own safety and peace of mind.

Take care hon xx

BB 🐰💙

Thank you, @bipolarbunny.

When I got off the phone from discussing it with that other member, I was hyperventilating. His concern had seemed genuine - especially as his companion had similar experiences - but I think since then, he may have found it more comfortable to simply remain in his comfort zone - with the 'boys'. How cowardly. How lacking in integrity.

I am sure they wouldn't touch other males in the same unnecessary manner, so why do they think it acceptable to do so to women? Do men have no respect for women anymore? I am beginning to look at harassment and how it is dealt with in a whole new way. I had certainly done nothing to invite his attention.

It's a sporting club @bipolarbunny.

Hi again @Historylover

I thought to post to you again this morning - I do understand how horrible it feels to be groped - it's is extremely unpleasant

I was groped in church one morning - a long time ago now. I screamed at the man during the sermon. The vicar had seen me moving around at the back of the church and the sermon was going nowhere I am sure - and when I was groped and screamed at the man the whole church was in uproar. I eventually left the church - oddly it was the older women who caused me stress - asking why I had to yell like that, why I couldn't keep it to myself, and one person was trying to understand the sermon. So I understand

So petty. I think that some women who have husbands feel protected and have no concept of women who live alone might feel

Anyway - I am no longer surprised that there are men who think women are just here for their amusement. They are definiely limited in their understand of human society and the truth that women are also of social and economic value and deserve respect

You have the right to feel as you do. And as women we have our rights in society. Patting etc are totally unacceptable

All the best

Dec

Right on, @Owlunar. People are content to watch as our society breaks down - in families, clubs, schools, places of employment - everywhere, but if you try to correct anything which has contributed to its breakdown, you are seen as a troublemaker. It's just more comfortable for them that way.

These clubs have a code of behaviour and if you do all to try to deal with a matter yourself, take more than is tolerable and react more than you would normally do as a result - your behaviour is brought into question. No-one considers that you had reached your limit.

As for being a woman without the protection of a man - it is very difficult. So many people make assumptions about you which are so wide of the mark, and grossly inappropriate. Offensive. Disrespectful. Belittling.

After our game, we had gone inside the club room for tea, after which the bar is open and apparently it is customary for the home team to buy their visiting, opposite number a drink. I don't drink - for many well-considered reasons - but as I was leaving - hurriedly - a man approached - I don't think he was my opposite number, and asked if he could buy me a drink. I felt like he considered me a pick-up. It was ghastly. I apologized that I was just leaving and continued to do so.

How awkward to be put in this situation. It may seem ungracious if I don't offer to buy a visiting man - my opposite number - a drink, but an affront to my values if I do. No way I'll be part of such a social situation. I don't frequent pubs - and won't.

Personally - I like the finer things of life.

Hi again @Historylover

I like the finer things in life too - perhaps I am a geek or a nerd - and I am happy to be

There is a strange sub-culture about alcohol. It is consider uncouth not to drink with someone else. I really don't understand this. I would feel as you do and want to lease ASAP and consider anyone who needed a drink could buy their own and drink with someone else or alone

So yes - this is something I don't understand or join. I don't consume alcohol either - for my own reasons

It is really an indictment on society if we are considered ungracious if we don't buy someone a drink - or don't want to drink ourselves. I don't know what motivates such what might be considered by some as a social norm.

Personally I don't frequent pubs and clubs. Some official consider me to be socially isolated - no so - I think if I did try and join more I might be considered to be a grumpy old woman - antisocial - I don't care

It takes a long time to lose our social inhibitions about what other people think. After all - it is not my business if other people think this. I might actually be exactly that but I do tend to speak out about social inadequacies

I am glad I can share about this - I hope it's helpful

Dec

Give me geeks and nerds anytime @Owlunar.

I researched my family history and genealogy many years ago and it has become a habit of mine that, when I see things in society which I consider to be sad - for want of a better word - I reflect on the breakdown of refinement, conduct, language, the unacceptability of certain codes of conduct which have occurred over the not so very distant past. I often wonder what my grandmother would have thought of it.

I have a photograph of my great-grandaunt and -uncle taking tea in their garden with their guests. All dressed up. Today it would be casual dress, conversation, behaviour - and limitless alcohol. Such a loss.

@Historylover

I think this happens because the alcohol-consuming-culture tends to change the mind set of those who drink and sometimes to excess.

If we don't drink and therefore maintain our mind-set then of course - we just don't get it.

It is a pity - and although social life might be easier when slightly oiled that is not my scene

I do like a more casual approach to life - when I am out socially with people who drink until they are tanked I do feel very out of it.

What can we do about that? Actually I do keep to myself - when I was younger I had to attend events with my then-h - sometimes my family of origin. I wasn't happy then yet it is strange - in some of those photographs I seem to be the only person was having a good time.

I think I was grinning at the camera - actually I hate having to be the one to drive home so often - I was unhappy about this social life when I attended because of my husband

I like it better being alone - I get along perfectly with my company and don't get lonely even in this lockdown. I like to have my choices. It would be for everyone

Dec

I just think it sad that alcohol has become such a staple in our society. I must admit though, that if I was dining with friends in their home or in a restaurant, I may partake of a glass or two of wine. Would it be by choice or the need to fit in? I will have to wait and see.

As for being happy in my own company - that has passed. It has been totally necessary, but has served its purpose and I now crave good company, good conversation and a good time. I want to laugh again. I want to revel in others' company. I have adjustments to make as I have only had myself to please for such a long time.

I haven't gone off on a different tangent here @Owlunar. I'm just trying to find how to be social without compromising my values or being seen as a wowser. Finding the middle ground. Dipping my toes in the water.