A question for all

My thinking runs that way too. @theaveragejoe I guess it all comes down to stats and risk assessment, but it does seem a little hazy to me.

We will see what experts chime in ...

Hi @theaveragejoe@Appleblossom

I find the term Mental Illness to be ambiguous and awkward - it does seem to have a meaning that we use between ourselves - we all seem to understand each other but I am not sure what I mean when I use it - and really - I think I only use it when I am talking about my son who had BDP - at least I believe that's the tag he had - it seems he had enough symtoms to fit the title

It's a puzzle to wonder about the origins of individual Mental Illness because it takes different forms and appears in different people - why for example - can some people endure parental rejection and not have a serious impairment in adult life when other people are devastated and find it hard to endure - have it cause them to have a serious degree of emotional discomfort

Like Appleblossom I will be interested in what other people hae to adds here and yes - I have been thinking about the same subject myself

Dec

@theaveragejoe

It's an interesting question. I think there are different types of mental or neurological 'disturbances' that affect the brain. As an example, someone with Tourrett's might have physical ticks or spasms that make them yell things out. I think with depression it is a build up of life experience (or a trauma) that the brain becomes 'programmed' to think and work in a particular and negative way - the pathways in the brain start to change how the person thinks and, over time, that becomes the only way they can think. I was told it can re-wire the brain. I do not know of any studies of anyone who is born depressed? It seems to be something that happens to the brain over time.

There are some illnesses that are harder to explain, like people who get lung cancer who have never smoked. Or people who go to bed and then wake up paralysed. Or why some people get acne and some people do not (even though they might have same diet, same parents etc).

My current view of the world is that anyone who is not depressed living in this world, is not in reality 🙂

I hear you @girl99

I have enough going on in my life right now to be depressed if I had not already been through worse and right now it's bad enough with two frailed-aged elderly relatives who are very special to me are seriously ill and my daughter has been very ill and had two operations and I don't seem to be doing really well with unstable blood pressure tablets - I have to see my doctor about those on Friday

Add in a coupld of other things and I feel downright miserable tonight - I can accept that - it's okay - some people might call it reactive depression but I've had that and it was worse - the situation was worse - the symptoms were worse and it was really bad but now

I agree - I think living in the world with the stuff happening right, left and centre everyone must feel some kind of emotional discomfort or they are in fairyland - not in touch with reality.

Yes - I think people can be realistic and see the world with war, refugees, polution, financial instablity and corrupt politicians and feel okay - just okay - not at all happy - perhaps put a brave face on it but really

I have all that external stuff like everyone else and I am okay with that uncertainty perhaps because I can't do anything much about it - but when it comes to unhappiness - yes - definitely on my table - but depression - I guess there is a time when it is really hard to sit in the proverbial rain and wait until it passes because we all need life experience to tell us that it will

btw - it's raining buckets in Melbourne tonight as well as all the fun stuff in my life

I hear you though

Dec

Thank you for your reply @OwlunarDec. From what I understand you are talking about "resilience". We often read stories of children being sexually abused or verbally abused in a very severe way. Even if most of these children will later develop a Mental Disorder some may not. THis is due to resilience and the strength of each individual,

I think. Some have a strong character and they will get over the ordeal without developing problems because of their resilience; other's spirit will break and they will develop a Mental Disorder. But the problem still remains that this does not explain or excuse the use of "illness" when it comes to the mind. If we have not identified the source of the problem with certainty then we should not use the term illness.

Also to consider that many artists, scientists and creative people have a much more sensitive personality prone to develop problems such as depression and anxiety and many have Bipolar. It is a scientific fact, from what I read, that genius and mental disorders go hand in hand, there is a strong correlation. Also, you will find more mental disorders amongst creative people: actors, painters and musicians tend to have more problems with their mind than the wider population. The depression or bipolar of an artist can also be a gift not only a problem. They will often use their symptoms to fuel their creativity. I certainly do that and I know other people that do.

It is a very complex situation and using "illness" is not going to make it any easier.

Hi @girl99girl99, from what I read a lot of environmental problem can cause depression. And you are right while there may be very rare cases where chronic depression may have a strong biological element the majority of cases of depression seem to be cause by the environment. You are also right I feel, whether it is environmental or genetic the situation can be reversed in most cases, people do recover well.

However, if a child developes severe depression due to having been sexually molested (and there are many cases) then it is hard to blame an illness that is somehow detached from what happened to the child.

I feel that this is a confusion in our medical world. most of the times, to confuse the symptoms and manifestation of the disorder (such as depression for example) with the origins of the problem.

To give you an example, think of a woman that is in a domestic violence situation. She could take all the medication in this world but her depression and anxiety will probably not stop until she moves out of the domestic violence situation, a strong example of environmental forces being the root problem. Of course her mind may become affected in the long term and some chemical workings may change but this was due to trauma not to an existing "illness". I have read that therapy is most indicated for such problems and particularly in PTSD therapy seems to work well.

But in the end, I feel, recovery is very time consuming and it takes a lot of effort from the part of the sufferer. Our society requires quick fixes that don't drain the system of time and resources. So our society, I feel, opts for the quicker fix which is a bandaid solution in reality, not a permanent one.

Just my ideas on the matter

Thank you @AppleblossomAppleblossom, when I look at the child abuse cases, particularly sexual abuse, physical abuse and verbal abuse I think that many children would have been otherwise healthy if they had not endured such traumas which are totally unnatural and inflicted by our world.

Literature tells us that childre that experience sexual abuse become addicts, often anxious and depressed and in severe cases develop schizophrenia.

With all that schizophrenia is a terrible mental disorder there are people that recover from it. Many professional at work today have schizophrenia but because of their recovery they are able to control it with a mixture of the right dose of medication that does not prevent them from functioning and other natural method plus therapy.

@theaveragejoe

thank you for your analysis. Yes, I agree that a woman in a domestic violence situation is unlikely to feel better until the situation changes. But there is also a chance she may never feel better and never trust people or engage with others again, even if she has left the situation. I agree that therapy (and slowly learning to trust others again) might be helpful in that type of situation. But depending on that woman's upbringing (she may have had abusive parents), or other life experiences she has had (e.g. rape, violence, car accident, death of friend etc.) she may not recover.

My understanding is that it is the repeated and ongoing negative life experiences (or traumas) that cause the most damage. For example if someone is sexually abused as a child, and is then put in foster care and abused again, and then gets hit by a car, or suffers another trauma, the build up of negative life experiences causes significant changes to the brain and in the pathways of the brain and the person's brain just learns to think differently. Due to that person's negative life experiences, everything will be viewed with danger or negativity. The brain won't be able to see or understand any positive things anymore as the person has not experienced positive things and the brain does not understand positive experiences or emotions. The brain tends to go back to what it 'knows' and if someone's experience of the world has been bad or unhappy and if people have constantly hurt them, then that is what the brain 'knows' and that is unlikely to change.

I agree with you that society wants a quick fix and just wants to hand out medication (where the effectivenss of medication is questionable). I think having some 'positive' life experiences could be the best thing for people who are suffering from depression, but unfortunately it is hard to create positive life experiences 😞

When I am mindful I prefer to use the term Mental Health issues rather than Mental Illness, which puts it in a spectrum of normal mental experience. @theaveragejoe

I have known both people who have "recovered" from Schizophrenia and those who did not survive it. I see it largely as a question of resources, a combination of material and human resources, that makes the difference. It might mean access to health care or stability of home etc ... or access to educated opinions or a loving heart ...Marginalised people get less and less of the social and material GOODS.

@Owlunar

I hoped a mod might have commented by now ...

Vulnerability also plays a big role. That might mean childhood trauma, domestic violence as in the situations that @girl99 raised, or war trauma, disability or the bereaved. Difference, not fitting in for any reason, ethnic, physical, gender etc also have a huge effect in the accumulation of life stressors which may lead to mentl health issues..

My guess is that working through one's own personal history in light of modern understanding of developmental psychology and the insights of neuroscience yields best results. Anyway that is my personal belief rather than fix it with a label and a med.

So I am with you @Owlunar @girl99 and @theaveragejoe

The state of the nation and the globe .. is not a joyful prospect. Acknowledging that is key, but finding joy in personal moments helps me find the oooomph to get on with stuff.

I also can see that for many people personal circumstances are so far from ideal, that even finding those moments is tough.

Some great discussion happening here. Thanks for throwing the question out there @theaveragejoe

It sounds as though there are two interrelated disucssions happening. One is "what causes 'mental illness'?" and the other is "does the language we use to describe "mental illness" accurately describe the experience?

Language has a whole lot of power in our social worlds, shaping our individual expereinces and social perceptions. The terminology around 'mental illness' stems from the medical model of health and for a lot of people, it can feel like it locates the problem within the individual rather than appreciating the complex etiology of changes in our mental health. This crosses many domains like - our physiology, our psychology, our developmental stage, our experiences, and our social worlds.

I tend towards the social model of health that appreciates that complexity and places emphaisis on 'lived experience' as a more accurate descriptor. That said, I rekcon we should all be able to identify with the language that we feel most comfortable with; a language that validates our experiences of the world.

There's some good discussion of language in this boolet from Our Consumer Place: http://www.ourconsumerplace.com.au//files/MentalIllnessbook.pdf

Keep the conversation going - it's one worth having 🐼