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TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

Unknown userMember17 May 2024, 11:39 pm AEST

TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

Hi, everyone, I hope you are all managing things as best you can.

I'll cut right to the chase in order not to waste anyone's time.

I will be meeting with a politician in the House of Representatives next Thursday (23rd, May) to discuss some issues related to mental health. These issues are of personal importance to me, but I would love to get input from members of this chat rather than just give my own opinions.

I would ask that we keep this respectful and not impose political views or opinions on anyone.

Firstly, I will discuss the importance of work in terms of the positive benefits it provides and the necessity for flexible arrangements to support people's ability to take ad hoc ‘time-out’ to address mental health needs free from the stress of depleting sick leave or other leave entitlements. Also, given the increased casualisation of the workforce, many people have to take leave without pay, which places additional financial stressors on many.

What can we do to make things easier for people in this regard? What are your thoughts and personal experiences on this topic?

Second, I will discuss what I refer to as slipping through the cracks of support services. For example, the process and eligibility requirements for the Disability Support Pension (DSP) are not attainable for many; the process is extremely long and, for many people, likely to fail on the first attempt. I know personally that I would not qualify as I work too much, but the only reason I work too much is that I have bills to pay and do not want to be homeless. I have been told to go on Jobseeker or reduce my hours to less than 15 P/W to meet eligibility requirements. This is not feasible as Jobseeker or 15 hrs P/W would barely cover rent.

I've also been told by healthcare professionals that I would most likely not get DSP on the first attempt despite my diagnosis (Complex PTSD, Anxiety, Depression).
It is the same for Disability Employment Scheme (DES).

What can we do to make things easier for people in this regard? What are your thoughts and personal experiences on this topic?

Finally, I will discuss Voluntary Assisted Dying (VAD) and Mental illness.

Content/trigger warning

Basically, I want my bodily autonomy, including how and when I die. When the time comes that I've had enough, I would prefer to access VAD as it offers a painless, peaceful exit and would allow me to get my affairs in order before my exit without leaving a literal and figurative mess for others to clean up.
What are your thoughts on this? Do you think that people with serious mental illness should be allowed to access VAD?

For example, the last 2-3 years have been a living nightmare; my quality of life is extremely low, and the thought of doing this for another 35-40 years does not sit well with me. I have exhausted all meds and nearly all types of psychotherapy and have not seen any change whatsoever. Sure, things may improve in the future, but how long do I wait? 5, 10, or 20 years? Basically, I want my bodily autonomy, including how and when I die. When the time comes that I've had enough, I would prefer to access VAD as it offers a painless, peaceful exit and would allow me to get my affairs in order before my exit without leaving a literal and figurative mess for others to clean up.What are your thoughts on this? Do you think that people with serious mental illness should be allowed to access VAD?

Take care,

Quixotic

23 replies

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In response to: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

tymeModerator18 May 2024, 3:48 pm AEST

Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

Thank you for sharing. We have edited the post. We are sorry it has caused you distress.

If you feel you need to reach out to someone, please contact Lifeline on 13 11 14.

If you feel unsafe at anytime, please contact 000.

@D1ng0

In response to: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

chibamSenior Contributor18 May 2024, 5:52 pm AEST

Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

Thanks for this opportunity, @Former-Member ; and thanks for the heads-up, @tyme .🙂

1. Way more needs to be done in terms of properly getting people into jobs that make their lives worthwhile. Right now, people's only hopes for getting jobs seem to either be going through the college system (which is not a viable or productive route for many people), or hoping that friends/relatives will set them up with a worthwhile job. Where does that leave those of us who don't have any such benevolent friends or relatives? I've never heard any decisive accounts of the mental health system bridging this gap, and my personal experiance is that it is utterly useless in this regard.

As you seem to allude to, the benefits of proper employment go way beyond merely having a paycheck. So peoples' inability to get work will often be a major detriment to their quality of life. This needs to be acknowledged and addressed.

@Former-Member wrote:
..the increased casualisation of the workforce..

By this, I'm going to assume you mean the "gig economy". The gig economy might be fine for some, but personally, for me it would be a disaster.

My interest in getting work revolves first and foremost around my need for a close-knit, beloved family of coworker friends. If a job isn't going to give me that sort of family to spend my life with, then there's no point in having it.

The gig economy is the arch-nemesis of this sort of enduring workplace family. Everybody staying in place for all of five seconds, before being transferred elsewhere; no time given for enduring relationships to develop and thrive... it's like pouring gasoline on the already raging fire of our national loneliness crisis.

I think the government needs to do an awful lot more to fight the "casualization of the workforce" i.e. the gig economy, and insure that there will always be a robust supply of lifelong jobs centered around enduring social environments, for those among us who prioritize family/relationships over making a living.

2. I've never been a fan of free government money (e.g. dole, ect.) I realize that it is essential for many people, but I also believe that it causes or exacerbates at least as many problems as it remedies.

So many people in our society are of the opinion that money is all that matters. So long as you have money, your fine. So when you have a steady supply of money (e.g. dole, pension, ect.), but you don't have a job, most people will insist that your life is fine, because you've got money, and that's all that matters. They'll tell you you don't need a job. So if your basically crying out for the more meaningful rewards of a job - the satisfaction of contributing to society; meaningful relationships; interesting experiances; ect. - your basically screwed.

I realize that, for many people, the abolishment of things like the dole and pension would be a disaster. But for others among us, a new system where the only possible way of surviving is to have full-time work would be a godsend; because it would finally force the rest of the world to acknowledge that we need jobs!

I realize that might've sounded a bit off-topic, but bear with me for just a little while longer.

The government doesn't want to part with it's money. That's why it makes life so difficult for people to get the pensions you describe. It wants to minimize the amount of people who are on those pensions.

If it focussed it's attention more on getting people proper, fulfilling jobs, it could significantly reduce the amount of people who seek to get on those pensions, and would thereby reduce the need to make the process of applying for those pensions so painful.

Content/trigger warning

@Former-Member wrote:
What are your thoughts on this? Do you think that people with serious mental illness should be allowed to access VAD?

Yes. Yes. Absolutely, yes.

I just cannot understand how it can be viewed as ethical to keep people captive in life if they do not wish to be here.

Yes, arguments are often put forth about how suicide displeases and/or inconvieniences family members. But we are a society that generally touts the importance of personal freedom, and decries slavery. In fact, the sanctity and preservation of personal freedoms is basically the cornerstone of the entire western world view on how the role of government ought to be defined.

So how can we then turn around an justify a system that compels people, against their will, to remain alive? Is righteousness freedom, or is righteousness securely binding people to the will of the collective? You can't have it both ways.

Personally, my view is that anybody who wishes to end their life should have complete freedom to access the most painless, efficient, humane methods of euthanasia that modern technology is able to practically offer.

To put some personal gravitas on this stance, I was told, over 10 years ago by a therapist, that there was no hope for me. No chance of love; no chance of a meaningful career; no chance of ever having anything truly good in my life. Yet, nonetheless, she had the gall to insist that I was obligated to "accept" this dreadful pronouncement, and abstain from suicide, while I settled into a long, bitter wait for natural death to finally put an end to this senseless life sentance.

Essentially every single day since, I have prayed for terminal illness, fatal accident, or sudden natural death to come and put me out of my misery. Sense and reasoning, as well as the predictions of professionals in these matters, strongly indicate that this will be my fate right up until the blessed day when I finally die.

I don't want to be here. I want to leave. Even the professionals admit that there's nothing here for me (although they still paradoxically insist that I'm obliged to suffer the full length of natural lifespan allotted to me). There's no sense in compelling me to stay. I should be aloud to leave.

wrote:What are your thoughts on this? Do you think that people with serious mental illness should be allowed to access VAD? Yes. Yes. Absolutely, yes.I just cannot understand how it can be viewed as ethical to keep people captive in life if they do not wish to be here.Yes, arguments are often put forth about how suicide displeases and/or inconvieniences family members. But we are a society that generally touts the importance of personal freedom, and decries slavery. In fact, the sanctity and preservation of personal freedoms is basically the cornerstone of the entire western world view on how the role of government ought to be defined.So how can we then turn around an justify a system that compels people, against their will, to remain alive? Is righteousness freedom, or is righteousness securely binding people to the will of the collective? You can't have it both ways.Personally, my view is that anybody who wishes to end their life should have complete freedom to access the most painless, efficient, humane methods of euthanasia that modern technology is able to practically offer. To put some personal gravitas on this stance, I was told, over 10 years ago by a therapist, that there was no hope for me. No chance of love; no chance of a meaningful career; no chance of ever having anything truly good in my life. Yet, nonetheless, she had the gall to insist that I was obligated to "accept" this dreadful pronouncement, and abstain from suicide, while I settled into a long, bitter wait for natural death to finally put an end to this senseless life sentance.Essentially every single day since, I have prayed for terminal illness, fatal accident, or sudden natural death to come and put me out of my misery. Sense and reasoning, as well as the predictions of professionals in these matters, strongly indicate that this will be my fate right up until the blessed day when I finally die.I don't want to be here. I want to leave. Even the professionals admit that there's nothing here for me (although they still paradoxically insist that I'm obliged to suffer the full length of natural lifespan allotted to me). There's no sense in compelling me to stay. I should be aloud to leave.

In response to: Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

AinjouleSenior Contributor18 May 2024, 6:44 pm AEST

Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

I thought I would add to the discussion about Voluntary Assisted Dying

Content/trigger warning

TW:suicide

I support VAD in people with terminal illness, should they choose that option, but not people with mental health concerns. I know, without a doubt, had there been VAD in my 20's or 30's I would have taken that option, as it was I came out of my 30's with a spinal injury due to a suicide attempt. I have worked hard since acquiring my spinal injury to get back to walking and living. I have come to place in my life where I am relatively content, a place I never would have achieved if my attempts had been successful. Did I have to wait 5, 10 or 20 years to for my future to become better? Well, yes honestly...and I can say now, today, that I am glad I did (one way or another). I also think people with significant mental illness can have impaired decision making capacity. Mental illness can distort one's perception of their situation and lead to an overestimation of a person's hopelessness. We need to improve mental health services so less people feel the need to look for options such as VAD.

TW:suicide I support VAD in people with terminal illness, should they choose that option, but not people with mental health concerns. I know, without a doubt, had there been VAD in my 20's or 30's I would have taken that option, as it was I came out of my 30's with a spinal injury due to a suicide attempt. I have worked hard since acquiring my spinal injury to get back to walking and living. I have come to place in my life where I am relatively content, a place I never would have achieved if my attempts had been successful. Did I have to wait 5, 10 or 20 years to for my future to become better? Well, yes honestly...and I can say now, today, that I am glad I did (one way or another). I also think people with significant mental illness can have impaired decision making capacity. Mental illness can distort one's perception of their situation and lead to an overestimation of a person's hopelessness. We need to improve mental health services so less people feel the need to look for options such as VAD.

In response to: Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

NatureLoverSenior Contributor19 May 2024, 7:06 am AEST

Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

I want to go off topic just for @chibam as I was disturbed by something - I hope that is OK to the rest of the people on this thread.

@chibam I wanted to say, please don't accept what that therapist said to you as valid. It was very, very, very wrong and extremely abusive and unprofessional of that therapist to say that. Highly destructive and damaging, and I am so, so sorry that that happened to you 😢

I am also so sorry you have constant SI. I really feel for you.

In response to: Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

chibamSenior Contributor19 May 2024, 4:52 pm AEST

Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

Sorry, @NatureLover . It wasn't my intention to disturb or upset anyone.

But it's always been my view that unless we talk about these sorts of things frankly, we have no chance of actually fixing the problems.

All too often, I've had my views on these sorts of issues written off as mad drivel because I've failed to (or been unable to) elaborate on the basis for my reasoning; so that's why I felt it was necessary to go into detail regarding my own experiance, bleak as it may be.

Content/trigger warning

And the thing is, @NatureLover , it wasn't just one therapist peddling that message, it actually happened twice, with two separate therapists. The first one was easy enough write off as just being some bitter a***; but when you get a second one making the same pronouncement, it's a lot more difficult to dismiss.

But even beyond the viewpoints of those two therapists (who I have a very low opinion of, BTW) the observable evidance from life itself makes the same case very convincingly. If there is a pathway to a life worth prolonging, then where is it? How come nobody else I know seems to have found it? It certainly isn't a mystery for lack of effort on my part trying to figure it out.

That's the highly summarized version. The evidance is actually abundant, but I won't go in to it here.

Suffice to say, those therapists didn't poison me with a bad idea, so much as they just confirmed the most credible conclusion that I probably would've eventually come to myself, from the available evidance.

And the thing is, , it wasn't just one therapist peddling that message, it actually happened twice, with two separate therapists. The first one was easy enough write off as just being some bitter a***; but when you get a second one making the same pronouncement, it's a lot more difficult to dismiss. But even beyond the viewpoints of those two therapists (who I have a very low opinion of, BTW) the observable evidance from life itself makes the same case very convincingly. If there is a pathway to a life worth prolonging, then where is it? How come nobody else I know seems to have found it? It certainly isn't a mystery for lack of effort on my part trying to figure it out. That's the highly summarized version. The evidance is actually abundant, but I won't go in to it here. Suffice to say, those therapists didn't poison me with a bad idea, so much as they just confirmed the most credible conclusion that I probably would've eventually come to myself, from the available evidance.

In response to: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

Unknown userMember19 May 2024, 7:20 pm AEST

Re: Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

I really appreciate your responses @DogMan79 @Ainjoule @8ppleTree @Snowie @chibam @NatureLover

In response to: Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

NatureLoverSenior Contributor20 May 2024, 7:15 am AEST

Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

Hi @chibam , replying to you here as I'm not sure where to find your personal thread (if you have one?).

I wasn't disturbed on my own account, I was disturbed for you. I am so sorry that you happened to get 2 highly unprofessional therapists - and yes, I also have a very low opinion of those ones you got!

I'm wondering if they weren't able to help due to their own inadequacies and so made it seem like your fault?

@chibam wrote:
But it's always been my view that unless we talk about these sorts of things frankly, we have no chance of actually fixing the problems.

I agree! I appreciate you sharing.

In response to: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

JlolSenior Contributor20 May 2024, 11:04 am AEST

Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

OK, I have lots of thoughts on mental health issues in society. Not so much on VAD.

Here's my attention grabbing summary/headline:

There would be far less people with mental health issues if the government addressed societal challenges first, rather than attempting to address mental health issues after they've manifested. Yes, this includes housing and cost of living issues.

Here is what I would say to the Minister if I were there.

Admit there is a mental health crisis in this country. Admit it loudly. Say it's up there with climate change and natural disasters. Don't shut up about it. Talk about it on TV and radio. We all know s**cide kills more people under the age of 45 then anything else. Make it a top issue.
Stop spending money by subsidising mental health services. It's putting the cart before the horse and is reactionary rather than proactive. Practitioners will, over time, adjust their prices to encompass that anyway. Instead, put that money into public housing, education, and community.
Housing is a huge issue and government policy needs to change to make it more affordable. Yes, changing this will piss off a lot of investors. It will be tough. Some people will be mad. Deal with it.
Figure out how to bring back community. This is a big one. Humans are social animals and need community around them. As much as I like NGOs like Communify, this cannot be forced. Community needs to happen organically and contain a strata of society - rich, poor, young, old, healthy, unwell, disabled, male, female. Do yourself a favour and read the book Bowling Alone.
Stop relying on NGOs to do your dirty work. NGOs are great. But they should not be a replacement for government departments or services. For example, at my public hospital they have "partnered" with an NGO who provides beds, rooms, and care for those suffering a severe MH issues. You know who used to provide rooms, beds and care for health issues? The f**cking hospital did! You take tax for a public health system but expect it to be staffed by volunteers who work for you for free out of the goodness of their own hearts? F**k you!
Regulate social media. You did it for cigarettes, leaded petrol, asbestos, alcohol, and TV. Do it again.
Controversial one: don't lump in drug and alcohol abuse with mental health. Are they related? Yes. But in many cases drug and alcohol abuse is a symptom of poor mental health. You're homeless because of the "housing crisis", lost your job, living on the street, and stressed out of course you're probably going to distract yourself with something that makes you feel good at least for a short time. Stop blaming people who have these problems by insinuating it's because of their "poor mental health". You, the government and your predecessors, had a direct hand in creating a lot of this problem. Own it.

In response to: Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

chibamSenior Contributor20 May 2024, 8:04 pm AEST

Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

I too share your concerns about hijacking this thread for what seems like a deviating conversation, @NatureLover , but I'll make this reply here, as I believe it is pertinant to @Former-Member 's overall question about VAD.

Content/trigger warning

@NatureLover wrote:
I'm wondering if they weren't able to help due to their own inadequacies and so made it seem like your fault?

The problem was not so much their own inadequacies as it was the inadequacies of their profession. Namely, the so-called "golden rule of therapy", which forbids therapists from actually helping their patients with their real-life problems, or even offering meaningful advice to that effect.

That, coupled with their own biases about what sort of world/society they wanted to live in, and how incompatable I was with that vision.

The reason I keep this response here in this thread is that there are an awful lot of people who oppose suicide and VAD for non-terminally ill people. However you phrase it, they want to obstruct or corral people who don't want to remain alive into remaining alive.

And my point is that if you want people to remain alive, then this is how you do it ethically: you fix the mental health system so that it becomes a force that actually makes people's lives worth living. You don't obstruct them from accessing death, you improve life to the point where it is actually desirable for the bearer. And the first step toward that reform is abolishing "the golden rule of therapy" so that you can get therapists actually doing what is necessary to fix their patients' horrible lives.

And the next thing you need to do is develop some means of overcoming therapists' inherant biases, so that we can have some degree of reliability that the mental health system will deliver the help we want, not the "help" that the therapist would prefer to administer. This will probably include obligations for therapists who cannot, in good conscience, help a particular patient as that patient desires, to redirect that patient to a better-suited therapist.

This information might be useful to @Former-Member , as the MP they are meeting with will probably be mindful of the public opposition to the idea of free-access VAD. It might be helpful to be armed with an alternate strategy for minimizing the occurances of suicide and VAD, rather then outright outlawing, impeding, or scandalizing it. Namely, reforming the mental health system into something that actually makes life worth prolonging, and thereby makes suicide/VAD much less desirable for a significant portion of the population.

wrote:I'm wondering if they weren't able to help due to their own inadequacies and so made it seem like your fault?The problem was not so much their own inadequacies as it was the inadequacies of their profession. Namely, the so-called "golden rule of therapy", which forbids therapists from actually helping their patients with their real-life problems, or even offering meaningful advice to that effect.That, coupled with their own biases about what sort of world/society they wanted to live in, and how incompatable I was with that vision.The reason I keep this response here in this thread is that there are an awful lot of people who oppose suicide and VAD for non-terminally ill people. However you phrase it, they want to obstruct or corral people who don't want to remain alive into remaining alive.And my point is that if you want people to remain alive, then this is how you do it ethically: you fix the mental health system so that it becomes a force that actually makes people's lives worth living. You don't obstruct them from accessing death, you improve life to the point where it is actually desirable for the bearer. And the first step toward that reform is abolishing "the golden rule of therapy" so that you can get therapists actually doing what is necessary to fix their patients' horrible lives.And the next thing you need to do is develop some means of overcoming therapists' inherant biases, so that we can have some degree of reliability that the mental health system will deliver the help we want, not the "help" that the therapist would prefer to administer. This will probably include obligations for therapists who cannot, in good conscience, help a particular patient as that patient desires, to redirect that patient to a better-suited therapist.This information might be useful to , as the MP they are meeting with will probably be mindful of the public opposition to the idea of free-access VAD. It might be helpful to be armed with an alternate strategy for minimizing the occurances of suicide and VAD, rather then outright outlawing, impeding, or scandalizing it. Namely, reforming the mental health system into something that actually makes life worth prolonging, and thereby makes suicide/VAD much less desirable for a significant portion of the population.

In response to: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

TricksterSenior Contributor21 May 2024, 2:06 pm AEST

Re: TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying - Your thoughts & personal experiences regarding current mental health issues in society

I don't know how to turn this into a content Warning but I would like this all to be Content Warning as I will be addressing the VAD side of things

TW: Voluntary Assisted Dying

Content/trigger warning

What we do know is early intervention works, and that means every stage not just before the MH problems start but during, if someone puts a sign for do you need help in a toilet they are more likely to call it then if there is none. VAD has always been reserved for medically in this present moment someone cannot get help they are terminal, MH is so variable the people you interact with, the medication you take, the communities you visit, the therapies you take and the life you have it's just all too varied to for sure say no there is no treatment, person, community, medication or something that will work.

I come from lived experience and also am currently doing a crisis support course, part of what we learn is psychache. Pain that psychologically is akin to what someone physically experiences like the 1-10 scale. Theoretically you can say an 8 for decades that regularly has crisis of 10s might be a candidate for the MH VAD but what about the 5 for decades the occasionally has 10s, the 0 that suddenly is constantly 10 how do you make that decision as a physician. You've got to consider co-morbidities, some might be treatable, you've got to consider that the top death for youth is suicide but for other age groups it's not is that because there is a significant lack of help for youth of is it because it takes a while for the help to take affect, or is the help we are offering not suitable, this one I genuinely do not know someone else might know. What we do know is early intervention works, and that means every stage not just before the MH problems start but during, if someone puts a sign for do you need help in a toilet they are more likely to call it then if there is none. VAD has always been reserved for medically in this present moment someone cannot get help they are terminal, MH is so variable the people you interact with, the medication you take, the communities you visit, the therapies you take and the life you have it's just all too varied to for sure say no there is no treatment, person, community, medication or something that will work.

Take a breath and rest don't forget to love yourself.

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