Diversity and Inclusion

You have some great points and observations there @deshift . This resonates for me (the paragraph posted belo) particularly as we had more staff on shift at once so one could do the 'building of the richer community' while the other (a shift buddy) did the 'fielding' of the new questions etc. Then we'd swap over. Anyway, probably better not say more than that 🙊. But I hear what you're saying and will pass on up the chain!

"I feel like the staff field a lot of fresh questions, self disclosed situations, that is time that could be better spent building a richer stable community for people from all walks of life. Most of the people who start a new thread want you to do all the leg work for them, when they could easily search for information themselves, or have that information provided to them in a FAQ type information article, and opening a new topic could be blocked for new users who have an account less than 24 hours old, or some appropriate amount of time."

Hey @deshift Thank you for adding your perspective here 😁

You have made some really great points. I am unsure of where you are seeing "I'm Bipolar" etc. Is it the frist page you see when you come to SANE or the first on the forums?

I do agree that by including some we exclude others - that is an area we can certainly improve on but we also cannot include ever diverse background, culture, sexuality, etc. How would you suggest we could improve this?

I also agree that sometimes longer term members tag those they have had a long standing relationship with but those threads are often very long running also (some for many years) and those relationships have built up over that time. As for new members - there are a few points to raise here - 1. Many Community Guides used to act as a 'welcoming party' and regularly and consistently engage with new members. Unfortunately that has considerably lessened over the last year or so - part of that is the CG program and support has fallen over and part of that is how the forums are set up with the 'Introduction' page or new threads getting lost in amongst others. 2. It often seems that those on shift do not prioritise new threads or members - often those posts going unnoticed/unseen or not replied to efficiently and effectively. 3. It can also be discouraging for longer term members to reply to new members (sometimes at length) and also receive no reply. I believe this is for several reasons - people want to unload rather than engage, they do not know how to navigate (the complexities) of this forum, they do not receive immediate support (which for some can add to their already feelings of being alone or not having support) or they do not find what they were looking for from the forums. None of these though are okay and SANE does need to do better to improve in these areas.

I partly agree with what you are saying about crisis support and stating this is not a crisis service outright but we also do not want to turn anyway away who could do with added support from the community. We do need to continue to emphasise that this is a peer-to-peer community and also encourage recovery led conversations and content. There is also inconsistencies in support between newer members and longer term members who present as 'in crisis'. Often newer members are given those numbers and the 'we are not a crisis service' message however some longer term members are communicated with and given support on the forums. This is not equitable and actually sets a bad example of what is encouraged and accepted. No doubt, a new member who sees some of these posts would believe they can post similar - then to be given the 'speel' and/or their post taken day or needed to be edited - would be both confusing and telling them they did something wrong (which as you would know, with many of the issues members have here, that could be devastating).

As for those who start a new thread wanting all the 'leg work' done for them - that is what this community is here for - to encourage, support, share experiences and to help those that may not have anywhere else to turn (for many reasons). That, of course, does not mean members/staff are here to do everything for someone else as it is only each individual that can realistically do that for themselves but sometimes those members just need to be heard and supported before they can find out all that information for themselves. My journey here is a prime example. I was getting amazing support from my team outside of the forums but I was in a very bad place when I came here (nearly 7 years ago). At the time I was also unable to find any hope or way forward in life and if it was not for these forums, the members and staff at SANE, I would not be here now. They collectively held me up when I could not do that myself and gave me support consistently. If I had come across a link to a statement about the service or factsheets (as 2 examples) I would not have gone any further. There is of course a line we have to draw as to what help/support we can be here and those that need immediate assistance that cannot be provided here - that is a difficult line though because we want to both help but also include anyone seeking that connection/support.

I do like your idea of a closed thread for new members for a period of time. This could be a place where Community Guides also have access to in order to welcome new members and help them navigate the forums. It could also be a great way for PSWs/mods/etc. to have at the front of their work so those members are responded to almost immediately and risk assessed off the wider forums. Those new members can then receive the support they need to either be part of the wider forum or referred to the appropriate support/services. With CGs, PSWs and mods being involved in both the welcome and support, they could then help those new members to engage in other parts of the forum.

You last point is a good one but although this is a text based service, so many who come here have minimal technological skills and may not even know what an OS is and could not work out how to do text-to-speech etc. This then goes directly to the question of inclusion - how do we make it easier for people to engage and provide additional support for those that are not literate in both technology and reading itself.

Would love to hear your further thoughts here @deshift 😁

@Zoe7 Thanks (I think...)

I'll try to answer any questions you raised as best I can.

I tried to upload an image of what I see as the front page, but adding a photo seems to be blocked. At the moment, BPD and suicide is featured on the "front page" of the forum. The "I'm Bipolar" "I'm This" "I'm That" was only meant to serve as an example of representation on the front page, due to the large influx of similar repetitive new threads.

I suggest you do include a large majority of diversity, in an overhaul of the topics, that are barely used, and serve little function in their current capacity for engaging with the community. Someone with BPD is likely to post a "Hi, I'm new here" in a topic / discussion / thread that is active and welcoming and inclusive for new members that is a topic just for BPD. Same goes for a topic for any other diversity you wish to include. The extent to which and how many diverse topics you include is ultimately up to the lead designer/s. I suggest more rather than few.

The introduction topic serves very little purpose as it is, other than to post links to the SANE helpline or similar. It isolates new members from any real conversation, and establishes the given average response time for the staff.

You seem to have a glut of new threads, with one protagonist, and one assigned staff, and sometimes someone will jump in, as you say, and often it might not be eventful, not for lack of trying. And are you suggesting that your staff are to blame for their apparent bias towards established members? I'm shocked to hear this, given that they presumably respond/reply to being tagged, as is the culture that is suggested/forced onto any new member coming in the door. Can I ask how this became a common practice? And I agree the forum is unbearably complex to navigate, and the server side is slow to respond to requests.

This:

I believe this is for several reasons - people want to unload rather than engage, they do not know how to navigate (the complexities) of this forum, they do not receive immediate support (which for some can add to their already feelings of being alone or not having support) or they do not find what they were looking for from the forums. None of these though are okay and SANE does need to do better to improve in these areas.

I'm reminded of an episode of the Simpsons, where Homer is tasked with designing a new concept car. He attempts to add every feature possible, and it turns out like a 3 headed homunculus, with family seats, luxury fittings, racing chassis, and extra storage. What is it that the forum is to achieve? Build a community? Or provide crisis support immediately? For each and every shade of person in the whole of Australia? (deleted).

Again, the preference for older members probably has something to do with the tagging culture rather than the bias of the peer workers, and I would love to hear their thoughts on this accusation.

That, of course, does not mean members/staff are here to do everything for someone else as it is only each individual that can realistically do that for themselves but sometimes those members just need to be heard and supported before they can find out all that information for themselves.

I think this is a contradictory statement, again, it can't be both.

Finally, asking peer workers to triage new members just further isolates both the new member and the peer worker from the broader community, and does nothing to evolve the level of discourse on a day to basis. If you wish to run a chat help service, then run one. This forum is not that. I've said that multiple times now, (deleted).

This is causing me discomfort, and I'm here for it.

😐
deshift

What if the forums were like a music festival? a big site with different tents - shared purpose and some overall guidelines but quite different stuff in each tent?

A chillout tent with chai and people reading poetry?

A first aid tent with water and band-aids?

What do people think about this as a way to brainstorm how the forums could work differently? what would you want to see? Which tent would you most like to be in and where would you find your people?

I think (deleted).

At present, there is nothing for me to engage with on the forum.

If it's going to be a big year, as you suggest, that would not be difficult considering where you are starting from. The forum is broken in its current state.

I would implore you to get the quality of service over the quantity of services provided.

Your tent idea (deleted).

We hear you @deshift , and certainly appreciate your feedback. We'd be interested to understand more about what the ideal space should look like. I know you have mentioned a few things already which have been very helpful.

This is the diversity and inclusion thread, which I've derailed enough as it is. If there's a design and layout thread, I will speak more about it there.

I'd still really like to know how the tagging culture came about to be common practice, and why it is instructed by staff to people in the introduction space.

In other forums I have participated in, tagging someone is fairly extreme. If the layout is simple and neat, people will read your post when they log in and read all the new updates, tagging people is just clingy, needy, self-centred and sometimes abusive.

@deshift I think I was confused at the 'home page' as there are several ways you can see a different page depending on where on the SANE site you start. It seems you were referring to the most recent threads and I agree these can often be problemmatic - especially when there are multiple threads started at once and on a wide range of topics.

There are definitely problems with the introduction thread also. When it was changed a couple of years ago, it was taken off the top of the page where it was more readily seen. I would personally like it to be locked at the top of the home page for new members to see and for other members to be able to access easier - and then of course be responded to quicker.

I am not suggesting there is a bias but in my experience (and a very wide knowledge of the forums over many years) there is definitely a much leaner stance on some content from longer term members as opposed to new members starting up. Part of this is no doubt that staff know those members better and may also have a plan in place to support those members through difficult times, and part of that is to make sure new members who may present as in distress actually get the support they need. The problem then lies in those people who are reading the forums, see what is 'acceptable' and then post similar but are given a different response. Consistency is important for transparency as well as being able to give the right support where needed.

...and to clarify - no not everyone responds when tagged and that is an area that needs to be looked at.

As for the tagging culture - it has been that way since the very beginning of these forums. I personally have my settings set so I receive messages when tagged - and then I can respond from there. With over 40,000 members, it can be confusing if you receive a message but you do not know who it is meant for. As there are very often lag times between posting and someone responding, that message may be several pages back in a conversation and without it being directed to the member it is meant for, there can be confusion in what is being responded to.

There is already a triage system in place but this has not worked efficiently for some time. That is a part of the co-design that I would like to see revisited and become much more effective. This may then change the way members are responded to.

There used to be a chat service available through the SANE Support Services however this has not been available for some time - something many members here have missed and would love back.

@deshift I absolutely agree that quality is needed over quantity.