Curious Questions

Hi @Former-Member just wanted to drop by n offer some support. I can't answer all your questions cos sometimes it really does just depend on circumstances. But I will say that as hard as it is to hold on to hope, there is help out there. I can imagine there would be so many here who can relate to that feeling of rejection when the right help can be so hard to find.

What sort of stuff have you already tried? Maybe we can help make some suggestions if we know a bit more about where you've already looked. Also, yeah sometimes calling a helpline just doesn't work out. Can be a little like spinning the wheel of fate tho! I always try to remember that you are very unlikely to get the same person twice, and feeling supported is always dependent on the type of person you talk to and whether you feel safe/connected with them. Maybe try again a lil later and see how you go?

I'm also hearing that you're worried about impacting your loved ones. Something I've learned over my years of recovery is that my anxiety always made the impacts on others seem far worse than they really were. The amount of times my close friends had to reassure me that they really did want to stick around... yikes! And like, I legitimately did have an impact on them, there's no denying that. But at the end of the day they love me, and told me it was all worth it. And when I am supporting my friends, even when doing so is really hard, I feel the same. It's absolutely worth it.

@Jynx

Hi, I wanna say I appreciate the empathy but because of my Photosensitivity, Depression, Diabeties and PTSDs I become sucidal and left a goodbye message to my partner who heard it whilst he was in a schizophrenic episode and then proceeded to try to do the same to himself. I can't see how I could possibly effect him worse than that!

Though it did lead to him deciding to be hospitalised and get help it still stands as a devastating regret that nearly killed us both. Now we talk via text but I'm not allowed to visit and have to tailor all I say and share and have to leave him if I'm not coping like I'm a bad child!

Yes. I still love him and it's worth it but I now fear what my conditions will do to him instead of him fearing for me. PLUS I only have confirmation we are friends not if he loves me and I am ignored when I say 'I love you' and feel bad for saying it like it too is a bad thing to say or feel. It also adds to my doubts every time he dasn't say it back. Since he says it to everyone when he's in that state I now can't tell if he was in the beginning of that state when he said it to me. It really is too close to tell. Again it could just be his condition making it hard for him to know if he does or doesn't. It all just falls back on me making me depressed and then I'm not allowed to be in contact with him when I'm down (which happens to be when I need him most)

Just like him I can't always control my conditions- I can't have any medication- and we both will have these conditions for life.

I've tried: Byound Blue, LifeLine, Respect, DOCTORS, Sucicde Hotline, Mental Health Hotline, Head2Health, Carers Support, Black Dot, Blue Dot, Anglicare, Salvation Army, City Mission Health, Schizophrenia HELPLINE, Relationship support, Enterpriseing Aardvark, local churches, the shelter where we were (where they claim support but kick you out if you ask for help and ignore your pleads to look out for your partner's safety while you are gone and just watch him slip into a sucidal state and do nothing) and hundreds of services and sherches on Google. I've looked for help for me and for him, for us and for support for me to support him. All with the same pointless results.

...and I've been admitted to the emergency department multipal times in 2 months, where they told the shelter lies, told him I'd made up lies about him being abusive that his state made him believe, so they cost me my accommodation, denied me food and sedated me in a chair for 2days promising I'd get to talk then tossed me out on the street with nothing. The whole help section refused to help me and I was exhiled out of the city for 2weeks.

This has been my degree of "help" not to mention I called over 200 support Hotline two weeks before I ended up in hospital begging for help. They did nothing then punished me when I fell apart.

This is why I feel so alone and depressed. I have one person who ever treated me kindly, accepted me without judgement in my entire life and effectively schizophrenia took him away from me and I'm left ruthlessly judged and blamed by society.

I don't know how to be any clearer as to why I feel and fear as I do.

@Former-Member I'm glad I asked, as I never want to go making suggestions to someone who, as you have, has gone through so many different avenues of seeking support and had such difficulties in finding it. You are certainly not the only one here who has experienced systemic trauma through the MH system.

Well for what it's worth, I do not blame you for what you're going through. Our society has this tendency to blame someone's circumstances on some kind of personal failing, when it's almost always a result of external environmental factors and systemic failings. I think it's because if people accept that crappy circumstances are not a result of someone's personality, then they'd also have to accept that these crappy things could happen to them just as easily, and that is too scary so...denial kicks in.

In regards to your relationship - ach, that is really rough, the not knowing, the waiting, the inability to see each other and work it all out. I will just say that loving someone, and expressing that love, is a beautiful thing, and I'm sorry that the circumstances surrounding you have resulted in you feeling otherwise. Loving fiercely and unapologetically is painful sometimes but it also tells me of the the integrity, the passion, and the absolute wellspring of goodness that exists within you.

I wish I could do more to help you. I will say that there are many like myself who work in the MH system who acknowledge its deeply damaging flaws, and are actively working against that. I hold onto the hope that you will be able to find and be supported by people like that - those who will fight for you, rather than treating you like a problem. Because you're not - you're a human and you're deserving of love and support as much as anyone 💜

@Jynx

Thanks for your kind words.

I totally believe I'm not the only one to fall through the cracks in the mental health system it's why I'm half grateful he's there and half terrified they'll let him down.

The sad part is many of us can't wait till the MHS is fixed and he is one of them if they don't help him now he will never try again and likely won't make it through another episode. This one apparently was worse than ever according to his mother. It's the first time I've gone through it and is why I have no clear understanding were he is VS what is just factors of his condition and why our relationship took such a hit because we had no warning no forewarning and no plan. Plus every one held back vital information from me hoping I'd fall on my face and just leave him. Including him.

I sure hope I find real help to because I need it despately too.

Hi @Former-Member

I am 74 years old and considered by some to be a mental health survivor. I was diagnosed with schizophrenia/psychosis when I was 23. I have certainly had more than a few journeys to hell and back so I at least understand what you are talking about. I am going to wade in here where others fear to tread and try and offer specific answers to your questions but I am going to rearrange the order of your questions.

Q1. How do you cope with your anger and sense of rejection that there is no help for you?

Vent. Cry, scream, punch a pillow etc etc. Keep doing it until you are completely exhausted. Just try to do it in a way that doesn’t impact on others or draw attention to yourself because that is likely to make your situation worse.

Try and use some or all of these essential and quite simple life skills

1. Try to figure out as best you can what you have control over and what you don’t. There are many things in this life that neither you nor anybody else has control over. Try to just ACCEPT these things. There are other things that you DO HAVE CONTROL over. Do your best to identify and then ACT constructively on those things.

2. Just take ONE DAY AT A TIME If you can accomplish just one positive thing each day that is a good and worthwhile accomplishment. You can’t solve all your problems immediately. Trying to do so turns it into an impossible and overwhelming task.

3. Try and EMBRACE your PAIN rather than pushing it away. I know, I know. It is very hard to do but please try anyway. Pushing your pain away makes it worse in the longer term. Embracing it heals. If more people understood and practised this simple skill the amount of mental health suffering in the world would decline dramatically.

Q2. How do you get help where there is none?

The Australian mental health system sucks. A few of us are trying to do something about it but don’t hold your breath waiting. You can only do the best you can with the limited resources available.

If you don’t have a sympathetic GP find one. Some are great and some are terrible. Keep looking until you find a great one. At the very least they will be able to provide you with suitable meds. You say you can’t use meds but this is the one thing you do need to discuss with a good doctor. Many GP’s also know about scarce and limited resources that just aren’t available through the public mental health system.

Many of us hate meds. They can turn you into a zombie and sometimes have horrific side effects but at times we need them and they are the one form of help that is readily and cheaply available. Don’t believe any of the advertising hype and BS. Go for the cheap generic brands they will do the job. Meds don’t cure anything. They are only for pain relief and at the moment you appear to be experiencing more emotional pain than you can handle. Despite what many so called experts say, meds are not necessarily forever and they can do a reasonable job of providing temporary pain relief.

Q3. How do you stop the feeling of drowning when the one you love can't support you and you have no one else?

The above suggestions (Q1 & Q2) should help you to at least relieve some of the distressing feelings. At the moment it probably SEEMS like this is all about your partner and the relationship and that what you need to do is fix the relationship. That is not the way it actually is. The relationship is just triggering your deep seated trauma. This trauma has very little to do with stuff about being abused etc and it should not be a used as a blame thing. It is a vast subject, supported by a ton of research but the maintainers of our crappy MH system try to keep this information from us. Imo, many of them are more interested in creating mental health problems than curing them.

What do you do when you reach out to a helpline and they only make you worse!?

I have only ever used LifeLine and personally found them pretty good but it sounds to me like just about anything is going to trigger you at the moment which probably includes this response. So forget the helplines for the time being and focus on the suggestions in Q1 and Q2

Where do you go, what do you do when all your conditions trigger the one you love into their condition?

I know this sounds very harsh and it pains me to say it which is why I have left this question to last. You are undoubtedly triggering each other and the only short term solution is to give each other space. This doesn’t mean you have to stop loving each other in fact probably the most loving thing you can do for each other at the moment is to give each other space to try and individually heal. Intimate relationships are probably one of the most difficult things we humans try to do. When either or both partners have serious MH problems they can become almost impossible because of the triggering that you mention and are obviously aware of

One last thing

Mental health IS curable or at least improvable if you work at it - One Day At A Time.

Help!!?

@Willy if you want to at any time.

Take Care. You are a worthwhile person

Willy

@Willy

Hi thank you for your detailed empathic and honest response.

One thing I wanna make clear is that my primary condition isn't a mental health condition but a physical one, Photosensitivity, that prevents medication for the PTSD, Depression, Diabetes and subsequent suicidal impulses.

Next up, yes I know space is what we need but I'm one that benefits most from belonging, contact and affection. Also, we've not seen each other in 2 months and only recently went back to text messaging while he's in hospital for his schizophrenia. My fears stems from if we are over and not just taking some time. I am happy to give him time but don't know if the space thing is working towards something or just prosponing the end of us. Naturally because of his condition he can't tell me how he feels I live in a new darkness of not even knowing if he loves me. That's impossibly hard to take not knowing if we are in this fight together or if I am already back to being on my own.


I actually laughed at your comment about your response triggering me. So thanks for that ☺

I do appreciate your practical suggestions you're right no one really answers my questions no matter where I ask them until now. I'm usually told "I've got a lot going on" in a way that suggest they can't handle hearing the list I just wanna say: well dar that's why I'm so distressed! It's much worse to live it all than hear it.

However they only harp on about how overwhelming it is for them to hear the cliff notes.

You are right also about the MHS. last time I asked for help I ended up in emergency. I went there for depression and sucidal issues and they put me into a collective PTSD attack because I'd had issues over the chairs there and they didn't believe me. They sedated me into the chair for 2 days didn't feed me despite knowing I am diabetic and in the end they saw brusies on my arm that thire needle had caused and my immune deficiency didn't heal fast like normal people and accused my partner of abuse based on his condition (despite the fact we hadn't seen each other in 2 weeks and gee I don't know the blinding fact HE IS NOT ABUSIVE he's the only one in my life that hasn't) They then told the shelter and I was graphically kicked out and band for life I was sent 208 miles away for two weeks of hell oh and they didn't even let ne talk to anyone and did nothing at all to help me.

So I get what you mean by the MHS is shit. 100%

If I did hold my breath till it improved I would absolutely pass out or die.

As for the medications, they did more than make me a zombie they nearly killed me and because my photosensitivity makes it all difficult my doctor has said I'm too complicated and ditched me...she's the 5th doctor I've seen in 3 weeks.

That's why I'm seeking alternative practical options but you know how well that's been going.

My greatest fear right now is if my conditions trigger his and we both will have them for life (for me at least Photosensitivity is for life) Then how can we ever be anything?

With everything I've lost and suffered in life, with only ever loving one person in my entire life how do I just sit back and loose him?

How the heck do I sit back and loose the only human being to have ever treated me decently in my entire life? Perhaps that is something I can't control or change but how do I just let go of my only reason to hold on? AND for what? Not because we don't love each other, not because we don't want to be together (no real reason) but just because we are ill with incompatible conditions?

How do you just see that coming and do nothing? How am I to do that?

Also, whatever couples with health conditions have ever been compatible anyway? They are illnesses thire main reason is to posion, corrupt and harm. They don't get on with anyone or anything not even other conditions within the same person (I'm proof of that)

So why should we just let them win and decide our relationship?

There HAS got to be more to life than losing and suffering and as$%$# isn't there? I've only know the otherside for 5 months before his condition basically took him away from me. I have nothing else good in my life, I never have had anything good un my life till him. That is the reason why I'm distressed and fed up the most. I feel like I'm losing him because I'm too broken. I feel like I'm letting him down.

I feel like I'm in a blender and those ment to help me keep pressing the button.

How do you just live with such endless relentless BS ???

@Former-Member

Hi, I’m glad my comment in the last post that I sent to you made you laugh. It kind of made my day to hear that. I sometimes find little things in the midst of all the doom and gloom helpful.

I am sorry but I don’t know much about Photosensitivity other than what I recently learnt from Google. It doesn’t sound like a lot of fun. I do know quite a bit about schizophrenia and psychosis having lived with it for over 50 years. I have also had many close friends with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. I say had because all except one of these people as far as I know, are no longer with us. People with these psychotic conditions – I prefer not to call them illnesses – have a substantially shorter than normal life expectancy. Some people say it is the meds but I believe it is more complex than that. Anyway at 74 years of age I am very much an enigma and considered by the so called medical experts to be in the “older than old” category.

Back in the “old days” like about 35 years ago I really was at rock bottom when I stumbled into a support group run by group of schizophrenics. Many of them, like me, had been dumped in the “too hard” basket by the public mental health system at the time. There was no formal support available, social or otherwise outside of hospitals. This group was entirely self managed and organised. We met in the dank basement of an old building once a week. It was real grunge stuff. We communicated with each other between meetings by phone. There were perhaps a dozen groups like this located around Melbourne with maybe a hundred people in total. We occasionally held parties etc and got to know each other. There was some pretty serious cases amongst us. I guess I was one of them but overall they were a wonderful group of people. The support and wisdom from all these crazy people helped turn my life around.

Over time the mental health authorities and psychiatric professionals got wind of what was going on and started mumbling about how dangerous it was for a group of psychotics to be meeting together and supporting each other in this way. The government stepped in and installed paid social workers into the groups to monitor and supervise us. People like myself eventually just got pushed out. Many of us stayed in touch and supported each other informally for many years but slowly the numbers declined. I keep in touch with my one remaining psychotic friend who now lives in Canberra with her husband and elderly mother. (Yes long term relationships with serious mental illness does sometimes work but it is never easy.)

The love and support from my Canberra friend was invaluable to me during my recent crisis with the Victorian Mental Health authorities when they attempted to incarcerate me with an ICO (Involuntary Confinement Order) because they consider me to be a “dangerous psychopath”. I have had an ongoing dispute with them now for about 5 years. My one and only heinous crime was to disagree with them about my anti-psychotic medication. I suppose it is a form of insanity to disagree, argue or even try to reason with these sorts of people but their arrogance, ignorance and willingness to abuse their authority and make people's lives a misery really gets my ire.

I am not aware of any independent support groups around my part of town these days. I think everything has either been taken over by government and/or gone online.

You raise a number of interesting and dare I say troubling points in your last post. Imo they are not really things that anyone can provide simple answers to but they are things that can and should be discussed to help you to at least try and resolve them for yourself.

I haven’t found this SANE forum to be much value for such discussions. The way it is set up and operated, I see it as more of a supervised venting forum than anything else. That is OK I suppose but I find it very limiting and frustrating.

These days I mostly hang out with a couple of international online mental health communities operating from Discord servers. One is called You’re Not Alone (YNA) which is quite a large general mental health forum. The other is Schizophrenia Spectrum (SS) which is a very small server for people with psychosis. There are a lot of young people on both these forums but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Some of them are very wise for their years and have a lot of insight. I also find the youthful rawness and honesty a pleasant change from all the BS that we seem to get from elsewhere. SS is my “home” community. It is the closest thing I know of compared to the physical support group that I previously mentioned. I have got to know a number of people in SS in just a few months and the support I received when needed was, to say the least, heart warming. By contrast, I have been involved in this SANE forum for about 3 years and even though I have reached out to a few people, I still don’t know anyone. When I once reached out for support I was rebuffed by one of the forum moderators which hurt.

I am registered as a support worker on both YNA and SS and take support calls that I think I can help with and handle. This is mostly on YNA where there is a lot more support activity than on SS. I find it quite a rewarding thing to do.

If you think a support group may be of use to you, you would be most welcome to join YNA. I think it may be at least worth having a look at. I would be happy to talk with you further on YNA about some of the issues that you have raised either in a private or open conversation.

If you are interested, you would need to set up a Discord account if you don’t already have one. It is free, quick and easy to do. Then you just go and join YNA. If you decide to do this, once you get to YNA, @Willy me here with your username and I will come and find you and “show you around” if you want me to. I visit SS and YNA nearly every day.

Take care

Willy

@Willy

Thanks for your offer to talk, I'll look into it.

I confess the information in your latest post breaks my heart and scares me badly not that it is new information to me, in fact it's something I experienced the greater risk of when he first started into this episode. As he grew extremely reckless and then tried to end his life. I didn't sleep without graphic nightmares for weeks I still don't really. I fear for him so much.

Is the fact he's 21 good or bad or irrelevant? I guess I'm asking another unanswer-able question there. The sad truth is you can't tell me he will be fine, no one can. I've learnt loving someone comes with endless worry, loving someone with a condition that impacts their lives is even harder.

Still, the ♥ heart wants what the ♥ heart wants.

You are right though that it won't be easy. We have more than just his condition to contend with. Even more than just mine.

I'm sorry that support group of yours got taken over that is how the government "helps" they don't assist they take over, they don't see the human being they see the condition and the dollar signs.

It's why I myself have no help and why I fear he won't get the right help either. Sometimes they are like a bull in a Chinashop barrelling through with platitudes and quick "fixes" not seeing the damage they are causing. It's their way or no way.

I agree too that for the most part SANE is a venting platform not active help.

Still it's been for me a little of what your group was for you.

Somewhere to go.

Is there any substance to the possibility the medication can cause early death with people who have schizophrenia? I'm not a fan of medication as I was sick at 17 and was put on medication that gave no appearance of reaction and then I was permanently damaged by it. My immune system shot and my blood poisoned for life. Making me allergic to the sun (a bigger deal than it sounds but true not as bad as some others)

I now cannot take anything without growing instantly more allergic to the sun and now sick with side effects too.

Can the medication he's on be doing something to harm him that we can't see?

Naturally I appreciate your blunt honesty but I'd be lying if I said it didn't worry me further.

It also breaks my heart for all the others too. Especially when some can be much better if help really was there.

I'm dreadfully sorry about your friends. Really I am.

Congratulations however on making it as you have that is no small achievement. You should be proud and to put up with such ignorant people. I've had that too with both my conditions and with his. I'm in the middle of taking to court the hospital for their latest mistreatment of me that also played into the stereotype of his condition too. Their actions caused such damage to us. It was dreadful so I get people can be just plain stupid and cruel. I'm sorry too that you had to suffer that. I hope you fair better if it happens again. We can only hope that the world of man is improving.

It's good for me to hear that others with the same condition as him can love, marry ect generally live happily enough like your friend (I wish them well)

At the moment utterly everyone around me is telling me to ditch him because of his condition even his mother blantly tells me routinely to 'get over her son' she is number 1 of the people who believe he can't have a decent life, have love or a family, work or a home or anything but just to wait to die and she makes him aware of her options often (though I can't tell if she realises she's doing it in every word every action) I think that is dreadful of everyone with anything- we are all still human beings- but especially of his mother. My family tossed me out because of my sun allergy so I dispise his mother for routinely putting that into his head. I feel some days like it's just me trying to fight his condition, fight for us, and undo all the damage his mother and the people around us are doing to him and to our relationship. Some days he himself believes he's not worthy of love and pushes me away disbelieving of my love -that I can love him despite his condition when no one else has not even his mother (I know the feeling well as I think it of myself for the same reason) - and it is routinely forced down my throat from others too. So hearing about love overcoming negative opinions and at least coexist along side conditions like ours is really really good for me. I'm feeling rather ill over the negative I'm forced to swallow endlessly.

It will be tough I'm no twit I figured that much out the instant he got sick. I had to watch him draw closer bad people but push me away and hold me accountable for their actions, accuse me of things I didn't do, suffer issues I couldn't address and still presently can't. I watched him go off the deep end, confess love to numerous people (yes some that were not real though I wasn't aware of that at the time) I watched him drink and smoke and not sleep or eat for weeks when these are not things he usually does. I watched from the side lines of his life while he unintentionally paraded people as his friends that actually were hurting me behind his back and then smiling to him while I was treated like a stranger. I got diagnosed with diabetes and couldn't even share that with him. I had a diabetic episode right in front of him and he just walked away. I watched him give my necklace (that he'd given me and had precious meaning to us) to another woman right in front of me because he didn't recall its importance or even who I was at the time. I watched daily as he reduced me from lover to friend to stranger time and again. He offered marriage and kids and then took it back 287 times in one day. I was constantly denied partner rights at the shelter and called so many nasty names by the other people in that place. I watched as they treated me like I was a danger to him and physically pulled me away from him they then kid me clear out of the city and force me to go 208 miles away. Not knowing if he was alive or dead for weeks. They have stolen his mail just because it's from me and I'm called a hussy by his mother and branded endlessly as some kind of evil with evil twisted designs on him that I am giving unwanted advances when in truth I've not been near him since this started. I've lived alone in the constantly changing aspects of what he wants and dasn't. For 2 months I've been completely cut out of his life and now only allowed to text randomly and only about happy things. If I get down or sick with my conditions I have to stop talking to him and basically feel like a naughty child sent to the corner. I now have no clue if he loves me at all. I'm presently at friend status and looking at the likelihood of a future either as a stranger with nothing to do with him or a life of just friends putting an obvious end to my dreams and all he'd once said he wanted too. I have to watch yet again as everyone who hurts him gets to know if he's safe and see him and be in his life (his mother promised to tell me if he was ever in hospital but didn't say a word for a month leaving me to fear dreadfully when I found out he'd been missing for over a month) he has directly told me he dasn't want to see me yet, however everyone else like his mother is allowed to visit. Why me? What did I do?

I live in the grey never knowing what is what. How much of late has been his condition talking and how much is proof he dasn't love me? Am I a fool or am I in the right fight. Fighting for us while he can't?

I have no one and am looking at my first birthday having someone in my life and yet likely to still spend my birthday alone. I am in a relationship but have to live and struggle through each day, each issue as if nothing has changed in my life and I am still alone. I nearly died again today from my conditions and can't even talk to him about it.

All the while that these issues, nightmares, struggles, insecurities, questions, fears, isolation and uncertainty are going on society just deems our relationship as all in my head. So often I have taken to showing some the photos that prove he did once at least that I haven't made that much up at least at the same time not knowing if those photos are just something that was but isn't anymore.

I've had to be homeless, move and nearly die dozens of times since he's been away and I've done it all alone and with no grantees I'm in anything anymore or if he still even loves me....

So yeah, I know a relationship with him with his condition will not be easy at all!

Yet he wasn't always like this. He was there for me when he could be so I hold out until I know for sure either way.

Society calls me crazy and he remains absent from my life for all intensive purposes and I carry on alone like nothing in my life has changed. That is how it is.

Society's a d#$% he's unwell and I'm alone.

All we have is hope. Hope he will come out of this ok and can give me clarification on how he feels about me, hope that it will aline with my dreams and wishes, hope society will eventually pull its head out of where the sun don't shine and that just because it feels like I'll be alone forever that it may not be true.

He exists. Ergo that's proof miracles can happen and that my life can change. So that's what I cling to. Right or wrong, stupid or courageous, it matters not. It's all I have.

Thanks for giving me insight and advice it helps a lot!

☺

@Former-Member

Hi. The Sane forum seems to have a problem with content that they regard as triggering. I have been in trouble with the forum management on a number of occasions for posting stuff that they were unhappy with. In my opinion, your latest posts are leading us straight into this area. I don't necessarily agree with their policies but the people who run this forum have the right (and ability) to enforce their views.

I am very happy to continue this discussion with you but not on this forum which is why I pointed out the Discord YNA forum to you.

As I previously pointed out, I believe YNA is a much better support environment than the Sane forum. There are quite a number of active support workers on YNA and in my opinion, many of these volunteer peer support people are as good or better than many professionals. Most of them would be a lot closer to your age than I am. I am probably the oldest person on YNA. Depending on the time of day or night, support calls are often responded to within 5 minutes. You can elect to have a private one-on-one conversation with a support worker or a discussion that is open to anyone. There is no time limit. The arrangement is between you and the support worker. I have support calls that have been open for weeks. You can be as anonymous as you wish and of course it is all free.

I am involved with others on this Sane forum attempting to advocate for change to the Australian mental health system. These problems as you know are real and important. I don't want to jeopardise these efforts by further upsetting people who run this forum. I hope you understand my position.

Regards

Willy