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My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

The other day, I was notified about this article (https://www.sane.org/news/suicide-prevention-targets) in my SANE email newsletter. The article doesn’t seem to have a dedicated comments section, and indeed, it’s footnote seems to indicate that all commentary ought to be directed to this forum; so that’s what I’m doing.

Those who are familiar with my stance on this issue will no doubt get broken record vibes from this response of mine. I know I do have a tendency to harp on. But my feelings are that, so long as the same sort of errors keep appearing in major policy publications (e.g. an article published by the head of SANE), we need to keep calling them out; even at the risk of sounding insufferably repetitive.

I feel I ought to just clarify, too, that I’m well aware that I don’t speak for the entire suicidal community, and that many will disagree with what I have to say. If that’s you, please make your voice heard. I don’t claim to represent anybody other then myself; though I do hope and suspect that I have like-minds out there somewhere.

My key grievance with the article is this: we are still focussing on the wrong statistic when we keep talking about suicide reduction targets.

Downturns in suicide statistics tell us nothing, because an averted suicide doesn’t necessarily mean a positive outcome. As a matter of fact, my opinion is that an averted suicide can often lead to the most horrible of outcomes. Those who know me well on here know that that is the essence of my own story.

I reached a point in my therapy where my therapist suddenly decreed that there was no hope for me. Love, career fulfilment, meaningful relationships... none of it was in the cards for me; my life was a lost cause. In fact, she was the second therapist to tell me as much. So, naturally, I realized that the only legitimate option I had was suicide. My therapist realized immediately where my head was at, and set about to aggressively coerce me into abstaining from suicide, by shaming me with talk of how much misery I would inflict on my relatives if I went through with it.

She got inside my head with her mind games; and so now I just have to wait for natural death to give me the release I crave, but for which I have been robbed of the selfish determination to personally pursue.

Fast forward to today, and when I read articles like this, it makes me realize that the upper tiers of the institutions who claim to want to “help” us are still not our friends; because their priorities are contrary to our own. They are offended by our deaths; we are offended by our own suffering. We contemplate our deaths and figure: “it’s not ideal, but it’s better then decades of pointless anguish”, they look at people suffering at length and figure: “it’s not ideal, but it’s better then them being dead.”

That’s when you realize you are still just someone else’s pawn, being pushed around to serve someone else’s game. You live because that’s what others have decided they want you to do, not because it’s what you have any cause whatsoever to do.

Getting back to the subject at hand, my grievance with the official fixation on reducing suicide statistics is that I am not amongst those statistics myself. Hence, while I am sitting here in misery, our leaders are touting my life as one of their “success stories”: one more suicide averted – that’s all that bears mentioning. Does anybody out there, amongst those fastidiously monitoring these statistics, care that I, in all the years since my suicide-that-was-so-effectively-prevented, have constantly been yearning for the peaceful mercy of death? Does anybody care that I do not count the prevention of my suicide as improvement on what could’ve been if the system’s suicide prevention measures had been less effective?

Spending some time on these forums, I have repeatedly noticed instances of other users on here saying things to the tune of: “I hope I’m terminally ill right now, or that I get natural death soon, because that will release me.” Those statements always strike me, because that’s been my unwavering feeling for years now.

We are all the “success stories” of those people in the suicide prevention field who dwell on whether the suicide statistics are going up or down. We have not committed suicide! Congratulations, masters! You won! And when we do die (likely after decades of pointless misery), our deaths will be registered as respectable, natural deaths. We will be headaches for the chief cardiologist, or the chief oncologist; not the chief psychiatrist. One less suicide number registered in the annual tally. One more success story for the suicide-prevention crusaders. Well done.

Maybe I am crazy for thinking this way, but when I look at my story, my currant life, and the testimony I read in places like this from people in similar boats to myself, I can’t help but feel like suicide statistics are a terrible distraction for our leaders. Because, I think that we are living proof that it is all too easy to prevent 1000 suicides, and create 1000 far more grievous tragedies in the process.

Please, SANE, government, and anyone else in power who may be listening to the ramblings of this broken old nutter, stop focussing on whether suicide statistics are going up or down, and start paying attention to the numbers of people living in anguish. And please, stop to considder for a second that perhaps letting someone go might be more humane then obligating them to suffer through a senseless long life.

Because I’m sick of my continued existance being officially chalked up as a “success story”.

22 replies

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In response to: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

@OtterOne of the huge problems - which nobody ever warns you about unless you just happen to stumble on to this little detail - is the so-called "golden rule of therapy": in that therapists are essentially forbidden from offering actual help, or real, meaningful advice to their patients.

So it's not just a question of plucking up the courage to go racing into a minefield filled with terrible therapists among rumoured good ones. It's a question as to whether there is any actual prospect of reward in taking that dire risk. And when you discover that the industry is governed by an instruction not to help patients, the answer to that question becomes a very blunt "no", for those among us who need practical help with our life's woes.

And just to give the dead horse one final wallop, I truly cannot overstate the hazards of racing into that minefield, even if there was a genuine, likely prospect of meaningful help waiting at the end of it. The dammage that my therapists did to me - and that so many other therapists have done to their vulnerable patients - is not something you can just "shake off" and try again tomorrow. They break you. The disfigure you. They amputate parts of your spirit that do not grow back.

It is no small thing to ask a victim of therapy to turn back to the mental health system.

In response to: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

@chibam I'm going to ask you to take a step back and consider the impacts of what your saying. This is me the survivor talking. If we're going to have this conversation, I need you to tone back talks of giving up on people. That means people at any stage of ideation pipelines. Advocate for more than life-saving intervention. Please don't advocate for less. I would feel a lot safer in this space if you could do that.

We can do this. We can make the system/world better. Survival is good for that outcome. Especially the survival of people that can do good in this world. I need those people to get every chance they can get. Not because that's a victory in itself but because that's what people deserve every chance they can get.

I challenge that part of your sentiment not to add guilt but too remind you, me and everyone struggling out there that, yes, your struggle and life matters. It matters a lot. It matters in ways that a suicidal mind isn't currently able to understand. But in all the realest ways.

I say with love and I hope you know that.

In response to: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

@chibam You are right in saying we need quality services ...but we also need quantity - the two should not be exclusive. We have so many here that cannot find anyone to see or have to wait months to see someone ....and that can often be too late. As consumers, we should also have a voice into what is required as well as helping to weed out those that fall below the standard required to deliver those services. We have inquiries, royal commisions, political rhetoric - all saying there is a need for change and a need for better delivery of such services but those words are rarely actioned. When are the consumers asked what is needed - rarely. Even organisations that supposedly advocate on behalf of consumers rarely consult with those consumers.

@Otter There are indeed cases of people having both 'good' and 'bad' experiences with health care professionals - that is always going to happen as it is the nature of humans to have differing views and opinions. However the experiences of some here have been far beyond a simple difference of opinion - what some have described in the 'care' given them would no doubt deter many from seeking further support from anyone. Unfortunately, like any trauma, it leaves a massive mark. To undo that trauma is not as simple as seeking another opinion or finding another 'therapist' - especially when that trauma has occurred because of a 'therapist'. This is certainly not the case in all instances (and my view is that the vast majority of therapists/professionals are indeed good at their job) but it needs to be acknowledged that it does/has happened for some and that makes it extremely difficult for those in that position to trust anyone in the health related professions.

In response to: Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

Hi @chibam ,

We likely have to agree to disagree on this particular matter. I completely sympathize with your experiences, it sounds like it has been a heavily invalidating, difficult, counterproductive and harmful journey at times.

I myself luckily, and many others, have had highly positive experiences engaging in clinical help and professional therapy over many years, with compassionate, dedicated, empathetic, skilled and understanding health professionals, through continuing to seek help through various barriers, obstacles and disappointing interactions at times.

I just want to offer my personal experience as a means of keeping the conversation balanced enough that people feel they can still access quality help and that there is hope if they choose to continue in their help-seeking journeys.

I think it's important to keep a level of balance and offer differing experiences when discussing help-seeking to ensure all are able to make decisions that are best for each individual and that there are some good options available through clinical services.

It's great to see your passion in advocating for more empathetic, professional and accessible care in the mental health space, I think you make some excellent points and these conversations about how we can make mental health care more accessible and helpful will always be important. I'm glad to see you are reaching out here and wish you the very best in continuing to reach out.

Much care and gratitude,


Otter

In response to: Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

Thank you for not having @chibam's post deleted or censored, @wellwellwellnez.

That said, what do the powers that be think we should do with our concerns? Keep them to ourselves? Turn a blind eye? The subject here is suicide, and that action is too often the result of people needing help who simply aren't getting it.

Reform is put forward as more of the same.

How can anyone turn a blind eye to what is going on in these fields? And then, agitate for more! And that is what is being put forward as the remedy to these escalating ills. More and more of it. More reports, more money spent, more medication, more hospitalizations, more treatments that have undesired consequences...

I'm doing a psychology course and what is being taught is frightening. There is no questioning of what is taught, as it's in the DSM-V and we have to consider that to be the font of all knowledge. I wouldn't give it a second look myself and consider it a seriously misleading menace to mental health.

I'd like to say much more as it needs to be said, but I run the risk of being censored.

I never advise a poster that they need to talk to a psychiatrist or psychologist. I wouldn't take responsibility for the outcome. I'd tell them that they need to find someone they can talk to–and many of us have no-one.

In response to: Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

I've read the article now. @Historylover and @chibam Kinda like, I was saying before, if anything the problem isn't that the title goes to far. It's that it could go a lot further. Targets are good for linking evidence to practice. That's pretty key to being outcome-based. The issue is the need to look deeper into all the outcomes, including the unintended.

That guilt-trip @chibam 's therapist did is already classed as a rookie move (apparently one of that "therapist's" many). The current training manuals already say to avoid that. But, if you ask little old me, the current literature misses the whole story. Telling people they'd make people sad is a guilt-trip. The reason why people would be sad (AKA love, compassion, mattering) is as important as it ever is.

I love all of you all so much. I don't care if ya'll are strangers. If one suffers, we all suffer. That's what makes us, us. I wouldn't give up that pain for anything and I don't like not sharing it. That's my issue.

In response to: Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

@chibam My take on it all is to quote your point .... MH services should "start paying attention to the numbers of people living in anguish".

I get your issue with the focus being too quantitative.

I found the Wildflower Alliance has some different tacks ... regarding suicidality ...

Its an important but not easy conversation to have. So good to see it, even if it is difficult. Thats kind of the way I see @wellwellwellnez point.

Maybe I would rather not have it, but cos its one of the big FACTS of my life, escaping the truths and denying the various facets, is UNHELPFUL. SO this discussion is helpful for me, as it brings the discussion out of the closet, so to speak. We cant keep sweeping it under the carpet.

There is also ... the issue ... of others taking public credit ... for solving pain and suffering ... I guess ... weary sigh ... there will always be politicking.

@Zoe7 @Historylover I have been disappointed with my recent dip into the Diploma and Masters level of teaching in the field. Regurgitating DSM or other theories and constructs as facts. Nah. Not on.

Yes I understand Sane's sense of responsibility to the broader community, and am still grateful for the forums, as a vehicle for robust debate.

In response to: Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

@chibam @Historylover @Appleblossom @Otter @Zoe7

I hope the author of the article reviews this response. It would certainly inform their practice by seeing how statisticizing people can be a trigger.

To be clear what I'm asking for is a similar level of consideration. I respect both of your positions @chibam and @Historylover , but when you argue them in such a general sense, you're not just talking about your experience. You're talking about mine. I don't know how to justify my life of anguish right now. I just wish I didn't feel like a had to, within this community.

I'm not justifying the system. I'm not made that way. I'm standing up for human life. Quality and number. If that means I have to advocate to the system and to each individual one by one, then that's what I'm going to do. A real conversation was invited, so that's my truth.

In response to: Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

I hope this discussion hasn't put too much stress on our relationship (if I can be so bold as to call it that) @chibam . I've been reflecting on it a lot.

I think I could have taken a less adversarial approach, addressing my concerns over some of you wording. That's really the only thing I was (tying to be) saying. The irony is, part of the reason harm minimizes prioritizes "immediate harm" is to minimize "social anguish". I'm just gonna say it. I miss my friend. Not sure what grieving stage I'm on. (Bargaining maybe (hence me trying to redeem myself)).

I do agree whole-heart-like in your overall observations. The real problems are further up the pipeline or down the river or those sorts of things. Makes navigating the solutions a lot harder than they should be. Sorry if I made it harder.

In response to: Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

Re: My Response To "Why Do Targets Matter In Suicide Prevention?" (TW: Suicide)

@wellwellwellnez I'm sorry for whatever transgressions I might have made. I am really at a loss as to how to express my point of view, or even whether it is ethical for me to express it at all. I understand that my point of view upsets others, but I am usually at a loss as to why this is. Glaring truths to me seem to be falsehoods or delusions to everybody else, and vice-versa. That makes it incredibly hard to navigate this minefield.

I am painfully aware that most other people are on a completely differant page to me regarding such issues. I tried to clarify in my initial post that the views I wanted to express did not speak for the suicidal community as a whole. Perhaps I could've been clearer.

Again, for whatever mis-speakings I may have made, and offence I might have caused, I am truly sorry. I am a sad and angry little man; and I am loathe to inflict any of that sadness or anger upon others. I've always tried to contain myself in that regard, because I know all too well how horrible it is being on the recieving end of such peoples' misery & wrath. But as time has worn on, I seem to fly off the handle more and more readily these days, and realize far too late that I've just caused a lot of grief.

I'm sorry.

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