treatment order

@Bow They say it is patient focused but that isn’t always true. One time a few years ago I was at a hearing for one I was crying and begging them to not put me on one because the doctors weren’t listening to me and the medication I was on was worse than being dead and they said they were still going to put me on an order even though the doctor at the time was completely abusing their power. So it really depends who you get at the hearing. Some might care others don’t.

@Willy I know it won’t go away on its own. I have had legal aid before on multiple occasions and none of the times they were helpful one of them even said it was likely that they would put me on a treatment order. I don’t think legal aid really cares about the outcome either way plus they are too busy to put together any kind of solid defense. I think If I go I will just put forward my beliefs and see if they listen I don’t think there is much more I can do. Plus it is hard because I don’t believe my beliefs are delusional but the doctors say they are and even though they are saying that to try and get control over me the tribunal panel doesn’t care why the doctors say what they do and anyway I would bet that the doctors are working with the tribunal anyway they say it is independent but I don’t believe that for a second.

Hi @Eden1919

I hear what you are saying. This is a truly terrible situation. The fact that you can write here on this forum in a way that is quite clear and lucid indicates to me that you are not continuously delusional or dysfunctional which IMO is the only reasonable basis for an ITO.

It sounds as though the legal aid people you have been involved with are not doing their job. It they were they would be sending you to a forensic psychiatrist who would definitely be looking at things from your point of view and when it got into court the tribunal would have to pay attention because it would be your expert mental health witness against other doctor(s). The evidence of a forensic mental health expert usually carries a lot of weight. Obviously nothing like this is happening.

Also, in my experience, some doctors and particularly psychiatrists will readily abuse their powers. Some of them have the ethics of gutter rats.

You said "I think If I go I will just put forward my beliefs and see if they listen"

May I offer a few suggestions which may or may not be of some value.

1. Write out your story in full. At the hearing read your story. Don't add to it or embellish it in any way.

2. Make a list of questions that you think, from past experience, a tribunal might ask and prepare written answers to those hypothetical questions.

3. Take at least one friend to the hearing with you who is able to remain calm and unemotional.

4. Do your best not to cry or express any emotion no matter how bad you feel. Stupid as it is, any display of emotion may be regarded by the tribunal as a sign of mental instability. Don't give them the satisfaction of judging you in this way. That is also the reason why you should only read a well rehearsed statement (or answers to questions) and not get caught up in any discussion or argument that could become emotional or opinionated.

5. Get you friend to take notes of everything that is said. (You are also entitled to a transcript of the proceedings)

Once you have written out your story you could if you wish, post in on this forum. Others may be able to look at it and give you some ideas of ways to improve it. Your story should be list of logical, convincing arguments as to why the tribunal should not issue an ITO. Nothing less or more.

Dealing with our mental health problems is challenging enough. We shouldn't also have to deal with abusive state mental health facilities that simply add to our problems but unfortunately, in my experience, that is not the case.

By the way, what state of Australia are you in? The laws and procedures seem to vary a bit between states.

You can do this.

Good luck

Willy

@Willy thank you I am honestly not sure at this point if i can even attend i know what it means if i dont but at this point i think if i go i will be too upset and it will go ahead anyway so i am thinking why put myself through the stress i know that probably isnt the best option but i am just not in a place right now to be able to fight for myself in that way.

Hi @Eden1919

I fully understand how you just want to give up because it can all feel so hopeless at times. I turn 74 this year. I was diagnosed with schizophrenia 50 years ago and I have been trying to deal with both my MH problems and the MH system ever since. I think dealing with the system has been the hardest and it is not getting any easier. Nearly all my friends with schizophrenia and bipolar have died, some very suddenly and probably all from the effects of the ridiculous amounts of medication that these so called "experts" try and force upon us. Of course these deaths are never reported as being due to the medication. It is always heart failure, strokes etc etc. There is a ton of evidence about the long term dangers of these medications not to mention the often very unpleasant side affects. As if we need to be told. The "experts" who are supposed to be educated medical professionals must in my opinion be either morons, sadists or both.

I am probably only alive today because I have found various ways to cheat the system a lot of the time but even that has come at a price of ongoing threats, harassment and bullying from the MH authorities. Once diagnosed with something like schizophrenia many of us seem to become properties of the state to be experimented with and disposed of when no longer needed.

I am very angry about what has happened to you, me and all the rest of us in similar situations and the fact that we are treated like low intelligent sub humans whose human needs and feelings are just completely ignored.

A very pissed off and despondent

Willy

Hi @Eden1919,

I have been on a treatment order in hospital, but it was only short term, so I wasn't given formal paperwork or opportunity to respond. However at that stage of my hospitalisation I was having daily meetings with the psychiatrist - which gave me an opportunity to disagree. At the meetings there would normally be at least 2, sometimes upto 4 psychiatrists, plus at least 1 psychiatric nurse. I felt outnumbered and voiceless. They kept telling me that because I kept saying that I wanted to leave the hospital & making attempts to leave that I lacked the capacity to understand my mental illness. I would get frustrated and angry at them which they took further against me. One of the medications that they gave me made me feel worse, so I didn't want to take it. But when I accidentally dropped one of my medications on the floor the nurses shouted at me and told me that I would have to take it or they would force me to, which was really scary.

Things that I learned helped:

• being compliant - even though I wanted to leave the hospital, I had to learn to stop asking or trying to leave & to do what they asked me to do. It seemed counter-intuitive that to leave the hosiptal the best thing I could do was to stop trying to leave the hospital.
• Writing down my thoughts in a logical way. I wrote a long letter to the psychiatrist/s explaining what of their assessment I agreed with (leaving out the parts I didn't agree with - so it sounded like I was agreeing with them). I explained clearly why I didn't like a certain medication, and what unpleasant side-effects I was getting. I detailed which medications I was willing to have and other non-medication strategies I could use to manage my mental health issues. I presented my letter at one of the meetings with the psychiatrists and a plan was made to discharge me without a treatment order. I had to agree to some things, but didn't have to follow those things exactly.
• Asking for a second opinion (or more). This can be harder if you are in hospital as the psychiatrists all tend to work together, but ask for a more senior psychiatrist to thoroughly assess you. See if you can get someone to actually take the time to do a really thorough assessment of all the issues, who will encourage you to share your story and treat you as an expert on yourself - that can really help. I chanced on a great hospital psychiatrist who sat down with me alone for over 3 hours to throughly assess me. She was the first psychiatrist who had really listened and it made heaps of difference.

Is your treatment order for treatment while in hospital or the community?

I have read reports about me that are similarly hard to process - some containing obvious lies, but many are just their misinterpretations. For example one report said that I was not able to look after myself as I had not changed my clothes that day - I had no clothes to change into and was not offered anything. So technically it was accurate that I hadn't changed my clothes, but their interpretation that I was unable to look after myself was incorrect. I feel that so much of mental health assessment is subjective & often they only find what they want to find.

If you could find someone who is willing to listen and advocate for you - a peer worker, social worker or other professional - it might help as often psychiatrists will listen to other professionals over patients, even if they are saying the same thing.

As @Willy said "Your concerns ARE legitimate and they ARE real issues and they definitely should NOT intimidate you or frighten you" This process should be patient-focussed and recovery orientated, but that doesn't mean it will be. Is there any way you can express your concerns without the stress of answering questions at the hearing? For example can you write your views in a signed statement that someone else (eg your lawyer) reads out on your behalf?

Even though you don't agree with your doctors that your thoughts are delusional, it may not be helpful to focus on disagreeing with them, unless you can get a doctor to support your view. Instead you could pick some things you do agree with and suggest treatment that you would be agreeable to. For example you could agree that you have scary thoughts sometimes, but have found the current medication has too many side effects and you would prefer to try a different one. Or you could say that you disagree about being delusional, but if treatment is necessary would prefer to be treated at your local health clinic rather than being taken to hospital. These are only ideas, as only you know your situation well enough.

Best of luck.

Also if you feel that you are not up to fighting this at the moment that is ok too. Focus on your recovery first, there will be opportunities to review the decision later.

@Willy sorry it took me so long to reply I have been overrun with uni work. I am sorry about your friends and you bad experience with the MH system. I cant say my experience with the system has been very different. the meds do scare me a lot they hardly ever tell you about the side effects and what you might experience when taking them and when you do look up side effects it often comes up with a horrible list of possibilities. it just makes me more scared of what they are doing to me which i am already very scared of them to begin with. i dont know what i will do about the order i just know right now i cant fight it. maybe later down the track i will try but right now well anyway it is what it is i suppose even though it shouldnt be that way. there is so much to be done to improve the system it is no wonder it leaves people feeling exhausted and despondent.

@CrazyChick Thank you, I find it very hard to be compliant when i am so scared. like to me i feel like i am needing to engage the fight or flight response because i genuinely believe that i am in danger by these people. and that complying with them will result in my death. they keep telling me they are trying to help me but i dont even believe they are real humans why should i believe anything they say. i know you are probably right and that the only way to get away from them is to play their game but i dont know if i can do that anymore i have spent so long playing their game to get away from them and it has just left me stuck here in this world trapped even more i know there is only really one way out but it is hard when they are constantly watching you and waiting for you to slip up. i just i am tired and i am sick and tired of being scared and i just want to hide under a rock and only come out when they are gone.

I hear you @Eden1919 ,

It is very hard to be compliant when you are faced with fear. It is absolutely reasonable to engage in the fight/flight/freeze response. It's only natural.

I hope you'll find space be kind to yourself at this time, especially with the pressures of uni.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Take care,

tyme