Do We Feel Safe Considering and Discussing Alternative Points of View?

A very fair observation @HenryX . From posts here, news-feeds and my own experience, tensions are running high. Within myself and observing others I'm seeing a lot of survival mode thinking that ain't actually that condusive to survival (or freedom for that matter). Now would be a good time for people around the world to synthesize their understandings.

What's been helping me through the process, hopefully, towards mutal understanding is the balance of two main health sector jargons. "Duty of care" and "dignity of risk".

I also think that the relationship between internal and external freedom might also be important. By that I mean, where our freedoms/choices affect ourselves and also where our freedoms/choices affect other people.

Hi @HenryX

As you allude to in your post, I think that, yes, there is a massive communication failure involved in this situation; people not willing to listen to what the other side have to say, resulting in bitterness and contention.

But I think it goes even deeper then that, I think it goes down to irreconcilable differances between various factions of our community; differances that have caused untold conflict and oppression for so-called "mentally ill" and/or suicidal people even well before the pandemic began.

I've always thought that there's massive folly in trying to cram hopelessly ideologically/spiritually incompatable people into a single society together. We need our own homelands - societies that reflect our own primary values; not mismatched communities we need to constantly fight in order to be ourselves, or to behold the landscape we need to see before us.

And to answer your over-arching question, no. I think, to a large degree, a lot of us feel that we aren't safe discussing alternative points of view - on a great many issues of importance - because generally, out in the wild west of the internet, you leave yourself open to an immense degree of backlash if you ever dare say anything controversial.

Numerous people have lost careers because they've exercised their right of free speech to say something unpopular. I think there's a lot of fear out there. And coronavirus being the hot-button topic that it is... well, there's just a lot of fear...

Hello @wellwellwellnez

Thank you very much for your response, @wellwellwellnez . I really like the way that you have summarised many of the core ideas. Also the reference to synthesising, and may I add, distilling from what we know.

The word, “entropy” was used in a discussion that I had recently. Unfortunately, it appears that: “lack of order or predictability; (and) gradual decline into disorder.”(A) seems to be evident in some of the reactions, as seen on the ground. The ideal, I think, would be the opposite; - what we would really hope for in terms of appropriate responses.

Unfortunately, we see a lot of direction, rules and regulations, without the supporting engagement, encouragement, and “grass roots” level of interaction and intervention.

All this means that people, who are endeavouring to support others, 'are swimming in a dark pool without foot or handgrips, to steady their movement and activity.'

Reference:

(A) : a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder

{Example of Use:

“The deterioration of copy editing and proof-reading, incidentally, is a token of the cultural entropy that has overtaken us in the postwar years.”— John Simon}

From: Definition of entropy - Merriam-Webster

Hello @chibam

Thank you very much for your response, @chibam . I think that your concerns about the bitterness and contention in our society, and their causes, are well founded.

I can remember the 1970's and 80's, when I believe that the polarising influences, if not began, but were certainly fuelled and encouraged. Here, I am somewhat sensitive, and possibly defensive, about what and who, I think, were the 'movers and shakers'. Neither is this the forum or place for those considerations. However, we are now dealing with the outcomes and repercussions of those events and developments. We do need, without acrimony, to really come together, if that is possible, to address the present issues.

I, for one, am an admirer of the fact that Australia is proudly and clearly multi-cultural. That takes nothing away from your concerns about divisions and dis-harmonies within various areas. Is that a failing of our system, or does it go back to the conditions in countries of origin, or are there other issues?

I know, having driven school buses, that younger people, from as many as five cultural backgrounds can enjoy each others company, with good humour and courtesy. There was one bus run that I drove, where, had it been my first, it is likely that I would not have driven another bus run. All of the students, many of whom I felt concerned for, were from “good old single Australia stock” (“whitefellas” to be specific), in a wheat-belt country area. There were a number of parents who I'm sure, added to the problems, by goading their children into causing disruption.

On another bus run that I drove, in Geraldton (a town about the size of Wangaratta, Vic), which was the highlight of each day for me, there were students from yrs 2 to 12, with family origins of Vietnam, Christmas Island, Aboriginal, Eastern Europe and the British isles. There was good humour and harmony between the students and with me as the driver. A very special time on which to reflect.

I understand that there are problems in various cities, however, I believe that the majority of people, from other countries, avoid undue exposure, keep their heads down, work hard and encourage their families to accommodate differences in culture and utilise the resources here, to make the best lives that they can for themselves.

When I was at school, I remember when many people came here in the 1950's and 60's, from middle and Eastern Europe, that those people were considered "outsiders" and were often treated very shabbily. Just look at some of the records of treatment of Eastern Europeans say, in Kalgoorlie. There are many other examples.

However, one occasion I remember, when I was about 11 or 12, was going to a festival, where my family and I were the outsiders, invited into an Italian community celebration. We were among the very few non-Italian people there. We were treated as special guests right through the day and during subsequent visits. No, there was no advantage to be gained, from our presence, to any of the people there, or to my family, other than the pleasure of the activities and company of the day. We were simply treated as guests. It was, to my way of thinking a privilege, and a memory that I still cherish. Now, most of the cultures, from that time have enriched and enhanced our own. Consider, and many may not even know the significance of asking the question, “How often do you buy Kraft Cheddar cheese for the family now?” Ask an older person, who has a reasonably broad culinary exposure.

I have to apologise Chibam , I got carried away with the story. But as a 70+ year old, I am coming to a time when I have stories to tell. I hope that those stories have some value and will contribute, in a positive way, to our progress and development into the future. We have a lot going for us, if we can only be aware of that, and combine efforts to project ourselves into that positive future.

To summarise, I don't believe that our major problems are at the community level. The major problem, that I consider to cause the most angst, is the disconnect between the echelons, at the so called, “upper” level of the pyramid, and the community, which they purport and claim to serve. Some of those issues, come right to the community level.

Interestingly, I have little contact with personal media sites, for personal reasons, as well as the wider concerns about “freedom of speech”. So they have little impact on what I think and feel. When I do venture into that area, it is not long before the reasons for my avoidance of those sites becomes apparent, again.

Needless to say, even here on this forum, I am careful about what I write, but most of that is from my own cultural sensitivity, and wish to discuss issues without hurt or harm to others. Unfortunately, as partly expressed in this comment, my major concerns are not from “outsiders”, but rather some of the “insiders”. I often consider, that I have been and felt most hurt, most often, by people whose values, principles and ideals, I had thought, matched my own.

'Et Tu Brute?' (You too, Brutus?) Really, not a modern phenomenon.

With the Wish to Provoke and Promote Considered and Useful Discussion,

and

My Best Wishes

@HenryX

No...

We can't... We are educated in a "you are either right or you are wrong way". Learning how to be considerate, acknowledge others points of view or give consideration to something that is far fetched is mark incorrectly as it did not meet the definition set out in the textbook curriculum.

People can't be wrong these days, they need to be right and those that disagree must be wrong.

It's a "developed world" cultural thing too because, in tribes, the chief usually hears all arguments and speaks last, considering all opinions. One thing is for sure, the human race is very divided at this point in time and it's showing in the mental health of all.. united we conquer, devided we fall. The only thing we have to conquer is ourselves.

Hello @AussieRecharger

My concern is that the story of the single stick being easy to break, but the bundle impossible, connects with the divided we fall concept. My concern is that this process is being fomented by entities within or outside our borders. Recent rushes on retail supplies to the point of difficulty restocking shelves is, I believe, a prime example.

I do believe that the retail issue is just the face of the problem and the issues go far deeper.

These issues concern us all, because the outcome is National instability, through disruption of services and consequent sustained low level pressure on individuals, that affects morale and mental health.

Cheers

@HenryX

Just watched the clip. So Tucker's weighing in is he? When I see that level of spin, I actually need to look at this situation differently. Looks to me like big pharma is using fox, to rile us up, to spread the virus, to increase profits for big pharma, in the name of defying big pharma and THAT would be a big 'ole hot mess.

@HenryX

I think, to a large extent, you highlight a lot of the modern misconceptions surrounding our present cultural divides.

I don't believe that ethnic backgrounds dictate compatabilities and incompatabilities, as you illustrated through your tale of the multicultural schoolbus. But nonetheless, incompatabilities do exist; and - contrary to what a lot of people say - I don't believe it's a simple case of "sheep being indoctrinated to hate".

I think that, for all our united love for Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., we have become very selective in our memory of him. We all know: "...judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." But we - almost deliberately - turn our backs upon the fundamental obligation of critical thinking embedded within that statement: "judge... by the content of their character."

MLK was wise enough to recognize that there is indeed significant variance in human character (including ambitions & values), and that we all need to be prepared to appraise people on this ground. While a fundamental differance in ethnicity does not represent an irreconcilable rift between individuals or even groups, a fundamental differance in character does.

In layman's terms, if my idea of an ideal society is starkly incompatable to your idea of an ideal society, we cannot work together as participants in building a common, satisfying society, because we will each be working towards differant ends. Even if we are able to achieve some sort of civil compromise between us, we will still present a noticeable handicap to one another. We will each politely, silently idealize a future where the other migrates out of the equation; so that the compromizes we have made can be abandoned and we can remove the associated undesirable aspects from our society; so that we can have the true home we've always dreamed of.

As I say, none of this necessarily has anything to do with ethnicity.

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@HenryX wrote:

To summarise, I don't believe that our major problems are at the community level. The major problem, that I consider to cause the most angst, is the disconnect between the echelons, at the so called, “upper” level of the pyramid, and the community, which they purport and claim to serve. Some of those issues, come right to the community level.

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Here, I have to respectfully disagree with you. And this is where I get into my own experiances which support the views I've stated above.

I know all too well the dillemma of walking into a room, having no idea of what's expected of me; nor how to play the crowd to get some sort of amicable solution for myself - including resettlement into a more kindred community. In the course of trying to figure things out, I came to realize that the people I was surrounded with would never be happy in the environment I yearn to be a part of.

I, too, used to assume that everybody hated the dreary and maudlin confines of our society as much as I did. That, if only we could achieve a massive change in our government (not just from one of the major parties to the other - but to an entirely new societal ideology, largely unacknowledged by Canberra), the entire country would cheer in delight at the new, bright future opened up to us.

But then, I began to see en masse public backlashes that made me realize that it's not just stuffy, old elites propping up the regrettable confines of our society; a huge portion of the population actually wants things to stay the way they are.

It cast many of the past events of my life into a brand new light. I'd always assumed that all the people I knew were holding out for a hero to come along and rescue them from their awful, dreary, pointless lives; much like I had been. I'd always assumed that the reason they resented me was for my failure to be that hero they needed.

Now I find myself confronted with the incomprehensable possibility that they may have actually wanted their lives to be the way they were.

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@HenryX wrote:

I often consider, that I have been and felt most hurt, most often, by people whose values, principles and ideals, I had thought, matched my own.

'Et Tu Brute?' (You too, Brutus?) Really, not a modern phenomenon.

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My dillemma precisely. Although, to be kind, perhaps in my case it was no so much a case of treason as it was a case of me failing to read the room properly.

I'm starting to spot more and more people coming out of the woodwork, aspiring to help create the sort of environment I would love to live in. But the pushback is merciless, and IMHO, it's almost entirely coming from ground-level citizens, not "upper level elites". A lot of people just don't want to live in the sort of world that we want to live in; so they fight to maintain the structures that define their way of living.

As I say, in an ideal world, they would have their society to live in, with all it's own norms, values and aspiriations, and we would have ours. We would keep to our own and everyone would be happy in their own little communities. Unfortunately, for people like myself, there is no defined homeland where we can gaze over the fence and see in our neighbor a kindred-spirit brother. We are all trapped in the "melting pot" with a bunch of hopelessly incomprehensible strangers.

And, as I say, it's got nothing to do with ethnicity or biological heritage; it's all about character.

Hello to Everyone,

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The tag list for this post is at the end. I have included names, from just a couple of threads in the list, which is comprised of people who have recently engaged in discussions on those threads. I would invite those interested to alert others to the conversation. Visitors to the thread are welcomed.

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With a view to stimulating conversation, I have gone back over some threads, and thought that this one may be appropriate, considering that covid restrictions are being reduced and lifted. It seems that access to services is moving from "blanket restrictions" to more individualised restrictions, based on having had, or not had, the COVID vaccination.

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If you have time to review earlier posts on this thread, leads for discussion may be stimulated, but not restricted to, or by previous comments. You may have and wish to offer other views or ideas that contribute to the conversation.

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The topic has implications for us as individuals when connecting with the range of communities and sub-groups with which we interact. There may also be issues that prevent or diminish your own capacity to engage with people in communities and groups around you. Examples of such communities and sub-groups might include family, neighbours, school and other educational activities and institutions, local shopping, medical and psychological providers and services, aged care, sub-groups such as yoga, self-help and mutual support groups, clubs and service organisations, as well as our present community in the SANE Forum site.

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To adhere to the purpose of the SANE Forum site, I would suggest that discussion be about, or at least lean toward consideration of Mental Health issues and those that may be connected with, or influence Mental Health for individuals, groups and communities, locally and in suburb, city, state, national and possibly even international settings.

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With My Best Wishes

@HenryX

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Hey there @HenryX, how have you been travelling this week?

Thank you for starting this thread – I imagine there are a lot of us out there in the community who might be feeling a level of uncertainty at the moment as things are shifting and changing, both in our local communities/cities/states, but also with the issues that this may bring as we begin to engage with our friends, families and workplaces.

Did you have thoughts or a personal experience you wanted to share around this @HenryX ?

Just a friendly reminder to all engaging with this post – it would be great if we could do our best to stick to the community guidelines – it's been quite a slippery slope in other onlines spaces re. vaccination hestiancy etc. I would hate to see that occur in our wonderful space ✌️